Ep.26 Conversation with Rukiye – The Power of Forgiveness

The video of her hugging her son's killers, has gathered over 34 million views worldwide.  She chose to forgive rather than to sit in hate, anger and revenge.  Rukiye Abdul-Mutakallim, sits down with Gissele to chat about how she was able to forgive those who killed her son.  She talks about the impact of trauma and how addressing it is the key to the survival of our species.   She shares her wisdom on how to create a more loving and compassionate world.   Do not miss this inspiring episode. 

Gissele: Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast. We believe that Love and Compassion have the power to change our lives in our world.

Don’t forget to like, and subscribe to our podcast for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be discussing forgiveness and why we believe it’s the key to transforming our world. Our next guest is founder and CEO of the musketeer association. And her story has been viewed over 34 million times [link at bottom of transcript].

As she chose to do something not commonly seen in our world. She chose to forgive the men who killed and robbed her son. Today. She works on helping young people be the best versions of themselves. I’m going to let her introduce herself. Hello,

Rukiye: Salaam, greetings, and salutations to everyone. First and foremost, my name is Rukiye Abdul-Mutakallim and yes, I am the CEO and founder of the Musketeers’ association.

However, it does not. Trump. What makes so much more important to me in my heart is that I am the mother of Suleman Abdul-Mutakallim. And he is my son who took a chance and his life and made a commitment to help all people, no matter who they were. If they were going through troubles, that he would help in any way could uprightly and being that mother who trained him to have that kind of thinking from my faith, that also guided me to that understanding.

I get to continue his commitment. And though I really would rather have taken his place. I wasn’t given that choice to have him come into the world, nor was I given a choice to when he would leave this world physically. Cause spiritually, he is still here with us here and he always be.

So that’s my legacy. That’s the honor I carry that step badge that right here in blue represents him as well. The musketeer association and everyone who wears this emblem represents what he stood for in his life.

Gissele: Thank you. can you tell the audience a little bit about your son’s story? What happened to him in how you came to be face-to-face with his assailants

Rukiye: in 2015, on a summer’s night?

It was the 28th of June. My son had chosen to go out and get food for his family.

And while he was returning, walking on the poorly lit overpass, three assailants walked up behind him and a 14 year old, a sixteen year old and a 25 year old that led the boys to doing this crime, walked up behind him, shot him in the back of the head, and he fell into the gutter. He was still alive when they dropped him, they took his cell phone $40 office, just $40 off his person and the food.

He was taking home to his family to enjoy,

like hit me to my


As I’ve watched that surveillance camera poorly placed. It has poorly lit. And all we could see with silhouettes basically

is that they didn’t have the empathy we say out Arabic. The empathy to call 9 1 1. And they had his cell phone. He was still alive and I couldn’t fathom how could a person or persons at least call 9 1 1. They wouldn’t know who you are. It was his phone and they didn’t run away. They walked away. You see in the movies, they say, stick them up. And Rob, and they run no in real life.

Today’s life of what’s going on in this world today. They have no sense, a fear of doing wrong. And this wasn’t just a wrongful act. It was a heinous act because he was still alive. There was no feeling of sympathy, empathy, anything that resembled and all three acted the same way. When I saw the boys in court, the assailants in the court.

So the first time I did not think I was going to see children and I saw babies baby face. The 25 year old has not been brought to justice yet. Just the boys. That was the 28th night of June. I was granted such a favor. My family was cause I got to say goodbye to my son. He left this earth on the 29th of June.

So I was in the hospital with him holding his hand. I got to kiss

the blood soaked rags that will wrapped around his head.


was my blood. I didn’t recognize this face because it was so swollen eyes swollen shut. He couldn’t speak, but he was still alive. It was as if he was waiting for him to come, please, mother.

And I sat

beside him.

Looking at this face, holding his hand telling him

how much I love him.

You got to say goodbye to me, his brother, who was at the Pentagon at the time. So we got the call and he put the phone up to his ear so we could hear his brother’s voice for the last time his sister was with me by the bedside in the hospital. You see,

I know I was granted such a beautiful favor because many do not get to say goodbye to them. They don’t has I held his hair? And I told him about his birth because he came in light , oh, birth comes in light and does death. But as I told him his story about his birth for one last time, I’ve always told them about their birth.

Every year. I tell my children about the birth. It is something that we do.

I knew I looking at his face. I would not have him for much longer, but his hands were warm. I’ve rubbed his feet. I got,

I told him was in silence when he was born. There was no sound not allowed. And the first sound that he did here was the creator’s name in his right ear. And then his name in his left ear. So he knew who he is. But as I finished saying all of this, I started to see the light leaving his body. I saw the single tear that comes down the right eye on his face.

And I knew when I looked at his face in that glow his time had come.

There was a clock above the bed at 11:00 AM. I still always see that in my heart, this clock and see the light leaving here. Because I’m like what, unlike what people think death is not the end and it is light. It’s a doorway that you are going to, where and what it is, I have not debate with anyone over it. What I believe is what I believe, but I know what I saw love, like leaving.

I saw that that brought comfort to my why, because darkness doesn’t comfort you.

But light does.

Some darkness, you can find protection, but the comfort is knowing that the light will come eventually. But as his hands got cold and his feet got cold I knew his time had come. But I got to say goodbye to him

that rested my heart, more than you can imagine.

And I knew

he’ll always be with me. His spirit will be here. I will hear his voice. His laughter. His anger. Your everything for me as a mother, come and rest my heart so though he was set upon on the 28th, his death came on the 29th and then we laid him to rest a few days later on the ground. As some of you saw the video.

And by the way, that the first time it went is still moving. The first time it went across the social media page, it went to 44 million 32 38, I think he said, now that’s the second time around. I’m still surprised that this,

Gissele: well, I think part of the issue is that, you know, when I saw the video of you hugging the young boys that were being tried, in hugging their families, um, I think as a mother, as someone who has given birth

to children herself, you should please allow don’t hold them back. Yeah. It would be so hard to,

to bear that

and still remember the humanity of the other person. And that’s what I saw in the video, which is despite your loss, you didn’t sit anger, you didn’t sit in, in vengeance. In fact, I had read somewhere that you had said, you know, vengeance solves nothing. And so the fact that you were able to

see these individuals as human beings

and desire, their well-being, it seems extraordinary.

And so I was wondering like, what helped you get to that point? What helped you not get stuck in anger or loss?

Rukiye: First of all, my faith. First and foremost, and I’m not a religious person, please, everyone get over that. I’m not, and I don’t want to be,

I’m a spiritual person

All human beings are spiritual. You need to tap into that spiritualness about yourself. You didn’t put it in you it’s there. It came from that, which created everything you see. And don’t see. And when you understand that you start understanding innate laws. These innate laws were put here so that we could live in harmony with all of the creation, but we have stopped teaching about innate laws.

Why? I have no idea. Because you cannot exist on this earth and do things just to do them because you feel like doing them. You interrupt a cycle, a well designed cycle that could harm yourself. If you’re not careful, you’re not just harming something else. You’re harming yourself too, because we’re all connected.

We’re simply all connected. The human being has the, the gift to think out and decide which way it’s a gift with a gift or a favor. You owe a favor. You can’t move about this world as if you own it.

So innate laws bring an understanding to all spiritual people, how to move about this world in harmony,

knowing how children are birthed, how they, what is in them that you didn’t put in them. And that they are gift they’re simply a gift.

And, and you know, that it’s a gift because they don’t come out knowing a whole lot of things, right. They don’t come out knowing anything. So you get to shape that mind.

And they don’t come out with weapons in their hands. They don’t come out lying, stealing, cheating, hating. Those are learned bad behaviors from the environment they’re in. And it starts with you what they do come out with that you didn’t put in them. Part of that beautiful gift all children are born with five things and it’s an innate law, , they could have no arms, no legs.

Cross-eyed blind split tongue. They could be,

all of them have the same thing, five things, you know what the

light in their eyes. Joy in their voice, hope in their hearts and a curious mind. And there’ll always be on the go, you got to move things.

You could give them a whole time to whatever, after they look at those things down on the ground, it’s like, what is that? They will find a way to get that. They’ll maneuver a chair. You might walk away for a hot second. I mean a hot, second you thinking, okay. They’re okay. You can hear the laughter and the voice or whatever.

The little talking, uh, sounds that they’re making and you say, oh, I’ll just go into his room for a moment. And then you come back out and there is. The little one he’s moved the chair or she boxes on top and they’re crying up there. I mean, I didn’t teach you to do that? Whatever is there because dad was always learning, looking, wanting to grow, reaching up as what we call it, reaching out that is gift when children stopped doing that because they’ve been pushed oppressed or some how some, what of a man-made disease of trauma made not to do that.

They start reaching down, picking up weapons of all types, whether it’s drugs, pills, alcohol, um, guns, knives, anything to hurt themselves and others. Because you’ve been hurting them. You’ve been stifling them. You’ve not shown them how to grow. Instead, you’re being a fascist, you’re being a fascist, you bringing violence.

And you’re teaching them racism either by the fact that they don’t like the way their hair look, their hair, the color of their eye, their, their speech, their teeth, they’re their skin color. You’re doing something and you need to stop and think about what you’re teaching them. I’m not trying to pick at people.

Please don’t get upset with me, but when you’re putting fake hair or you’re trying to tell the child their hair, isn’t that good. You make it easy for you to take care of it, but what are you teaching the child? What are they thinking about their own hair? Oh, wait a minute. I’m sorry. I don’t have the long lash luscious eye lashes.

I’m not picking it. Anyone. You have to make your own decisions, but those children deserve to have truth. To be understood that their beauty, whatever the Creator gave them is beautiful. Everything about them is beautiful. Everything. Even if they have some handicaps is still beautiful, why you didn’t get to choose that, the Creator did.

And He/She/It does have the best of colors, the best of design. And it’s a lesson for you to decide. What kind of beauty do you really going after? Cause the beauty really lies inside. Inside. ,

something to all, something to offer you that you haven’t taken time to learn. So you, it is that spiritual understanding that I have, that I taught my children. And when this happened, I didn’t run for my spiritual understanding and ran to it, to gain understanding, um, first and foremost forgiveness. And it starts with myself.

Cause I promise you, I did blame myself. What didn’t I teach my child. That was it, but didn’t I teach him? . I started counting all the things I taught him and all of them, about how you live in this world. From my faith, from my experience of walking and talking my faith. And when I didn’t do it, they experienced on that.

It boiled down to that one question, what didn’t I teach them. And I came to grips. It took them two years, but by that time, as I’m started seeing the boys again, so the first time I saw them, when they were 14 and 16, they were such babies but the 14 year old that I hugged, he was so scared.

He had never committed a crime in his whole life, a 14, nothing, had he done wrong , nothing. He was overgrown. Even then, he was bigger than the 16 year old. But he had a, a learning impediment that no one was helping him with. His mother did the best she could, I suppose, but we have other things to talk about that that’s what kind of stops and legislation have we put in place that keeps people from growing to do better.

But anyway, um, when I saw how young they were of the sixteen year old hard baby, I mean baby faced, but hardened. You could take out that he had had been through some abuse and it wasn’t necessarily physical abuse, as much as it was mental abuse, which is worse emotion, emotional. So he was hard. And then two years later I see them in court.

And the 14 year old has gone to be 16 and is as tall as my son. Now, my son is 6, 1 6 2. He’s standing as tall as my son at 16. He still has a third grade reading level. At 14. He had a third grade reading level and 16, still a third grade reading. So how well could he think things through. Overgrown giant gentle to his heart.

He really gentle, but his environment pushing him to be, to be accepted. You got to be a certain way and wasn’t a good way.

And then all of a sudden here he is. Something. He never imagined himself doing harming another person. Because when we did the investigation, sorry about his life, talking to teachers at the school, he was always protecting the ones who were being bullied in school. They would run behind him.

They’d be with him to be protected from the bullies in school. As a reason why he went to school. He didn’t go to school for the classes because they didn’t take time with him we felt the compelling to be in school to protect the little ones who couldn’t protect themselves. Now, what kind of young man is that child is yet at that time on the 28th, he was committing a crime, with two others, what happened to him?

What happened to all of them? Yeah. When I looked at there all their lives, except for the old, the 25 year old, because he’s never been one to, to book for what he’s done. I saw the horrors that have been happening to children in, um, in the United States, in Canada, in France, in Italy, in Germany. I’m like, what is going on here?

What has happened to our world? That horror… Of all these children sea after sea of children from molestation, from human trafficking, from pornography, from, from the old parents. They have given to, and they trust the parents to take care of them and the best of banners, meaning mentally, spiritually, they’re not doing that.

And they’re using them for their own personal desires, a mother seeking a five-year-old to have sexual favorites, a mother as bad enough, the fathers doing this. And then I see now the mothers have joined, I was horrified. Two years, I prayed, what am I to do with all of this? And by the time I came into court, knowing his life, how it came into being, knowing what his mother had been through,

how can I have approached to it any other way? If I want to wrap my mercy. Yeah. I have to be willing to get that. Yeah. And if you can’t give it to children, tell me, let’s see. Who can you give it to?

Aren’t they, the first to receive our forgiveness, our mercy , our acts of goodness. Aren’t they supposed to be the first aren’t they, our future.

If we don’t show them, how, what kind of future do we have?

Gissele: Yeah, so incredible to me that you decided to keep your heart open rather than close it, right? Like you decided to get curious, um, and try to really focus on understanding the story. And that’s really kind of the basis of compassion is that curiosity, like what happened to you, you know, um, and, and you have done a number of presentations in front of officials and so on and talking about how trauma really is the real enemy.

I was wondering what you thought we need in order for us to address this collective trauma that we seem to have created for


Rukiye: first and foremost, be truthful to yourself? Truth stand on truth , no matter whether it’s for you or against you stand on truth.

If you’re not standing on truth, then how can you possibly. Convinced a child to do what’s right. When you yourself are doing what’s wrong, knowing you shouldn’t be doing it, but you’re doing it anyway. So first is truth. Second of all. No, that, forgiveness doesn’t start with who hurt you. It starts with you.

There’s an innate law. You got to know the innate laws where you hurt yourself first, you cut your finger or something. What’s the first thing you say? Why did I do that.

Gissele: Ouch.

Rukiye: I know better. You don’t look at the knife and go “why did you do this to me?”

That is an innate law put inside you to first to look at you. Crystal pick you, and I guarantee you many, many parents when they’re hurting, they don’t want to answer that question. First, they start going towards who hurt them. And they’re saying, I’m not going to forgive them. I don’t. That was my child.

They did this to my child or to my loved one. And I understand that I do not in any way, say to them that are wrong to say that. But until you answered the first question, you can’t go to the second. You have to answer the first one for as long as you keep avoiding answering that first one, everything else keeps piling on top because you’re not getting answer.

I don’t believe in this country, especially in this time. And in almost all the countries around the world, I can’t say every country because I haven’t been there to every country but I I’m really, I would bet this (points to emblem on shoulder) on it.

They should not have a death penalty because they have not addressed the man-made disease of trauma. Trauma is everywhere. Trauma, our life is trauma. . The world came from a traumatic oh, and explosion, as some will say, it’s still trauma. Let’s bring it back down to where you can fathom birth women. We go through trauma.

We bleed for that child. We’re in pain, we’re bleeding , that comes out and you know what? The moment that child, my baby is here. You forget about the pain. You forget, you’re still bleeding. We bleed for two, three, four months after the birth has come, but guess what? We don’t say, I’m not doing that anymore. We ended up with another one and another one that some of us have multiple babies.

I didn’t want to go that way, but three children. And I do, I don’t think and you don’t think about that pain in a way that it just makes you negative. Majority of the people don’t. I know there are situations where women become negative but that’s a chemical imbalance happening that has to do with man-made, man-made trauma that that person went through that was never dealt with.

But here they are with a child now. So getting back to the point of it is traumas everywhere. It’s in our life. There is a trauma that is natural, that you will appeal from almost immediately. But what we’re dealing with is not a natural trauma. It is man-made and it is a disease 500 years in this country.

They’ve not dealt with what was done to the indigenous. I mean traumatic for the Afro-American my people. Traumatic for those who are migrated, traumatic man-made disease, and that has to be dealt with before you can say, you will take up a life or that you will revenge something until that’s dealt with no one, the death penalty I’m fighting for that here in Ohio to ended it.

I am fighting to end the children being buried alive in Britain, a 13 year old,

gets 20 years? are you out of your mind?,

it is in biblical terms or scriptural terms to bury children alive is a sin. We all know this is passed down to all the scriptures, right? Yet we do not see ourselves burying someone alive above the ground. They’re called tombs.

Four walls

put in a full four wall cell. If you will, and you leave them there for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, you’ve buried a child alive.

That is a sin. I’m fighting that as well. One of our, one of our officers of the musketeer association, our restorative justice division. He has had this and we starting with South Carolina and she is a champion. She’s building the framework, the actual framework to end this injustice. It has taken three years for her to get to this point.

It’s a beautiful framework and the Musketeers are heading away for it because it will absolutely bring out of that prison in a proper manner. Now I stopped burying our children alive so that they can come back into society and be productive. So our restorative justice division and our decarceration, division, a project there, those two tied together. It starts inside the prison, giving them, first of all, an understanding about who they are, who, how they, their creation was to do wonderful things. What happened to them? Someone pushed down on them, got them into the state that they are and is how they ended up where they are, where they don’t have to stay that way.

So helping them understand that while they’re in there, then bringing them to the next stage where they can start dealing in society. Cause once you have been locked up like that, let’s see how well you deal with somebody puts you out.

Gissele: Yeah. I have a friend who does compassion in the, in prison system work.

And that was one of the things that she observed, that we’re asking an extraordinary thing of these people. We incarcerate them, put them in, an environment with people, with similar beliefs in trauma and mindsets and energies. And then we expect them to do this extraordinary act of becoming compassionate and functioning citizens.

 It’s like the systems we have created just like the humanity just seems to have left the building.  Of course.

Rukiye: Like I said, if we’re building the, the actual framework is the way in which is she, she and the groups with her, the way they’re doing is like a masonry. A master of masonry.

So you build a framework, first of all, before you lay the house, you gotta have that foundation. And there’s so many particulars, each corner has to be right. Every level, otherwise the house was going to fall. Yeah. So that is how she is doing it. And we’re right there with her. And this framework is going to lead the way.

For all across this nation and we will share it with the rest of the world in order to bring children, children into a society that rejected them, lock them up and threw away the key. And we can not do that because that’s our future. All children are our future. I was in, I asked them the question. No, did I answer the question?

I made the statement. I said, not one of you know, which child will be the next Nobel peace prize winner or who will be inventing or discover a cure for a disease that you or your loved one may have. So. How do you shape your legislative laws or even your mind to condemn a child, any child, you must find out what happened to them.

Cause something happened to them and then help them heal, help them rise above that trauma and show them how to do wonderful things because they will start doing that is put inside of them.

Gissele: Yeah, it’s so interesting. Um, because from our perspective, uh, trauma-informed practices, the stepping stone towards compassion and trying to understand and seeing the humanity in each other and not forgetting that we are brothers and sisters, that we are interconnected and that our wellness is dependent on the wellness of our brothers and sisters.

Um, so it’s, um, it’s really interesting to me. When I, when I look at the systems we have created, they’re all based on isolation separation. Um, but that’s also how we treat each other when we’re hurt. Right. We want to separate and isolate and get away from the person or we want them punished. And so, you know, you had mentioned that, um, I don’t know if you had mentioned it here.

What I had talked to you before. Which was, you had mentioned colonization colonization at its core has othering, right? Like it’s, it’s, it’s the other, the separate that been not us. Um, so yeah. And so it’s, it’s, I think the way that we’re going to change systems from our perspective is that we really got to change ourselves.

We really have to change how we see ourselves and each other. What are your thoughts

Rukiye: when you asked me about the formula for eradicating the man-made disease of trauma, you said, is there really? And I said, yes, there is that change that you’re talking about is embracing this, understanding that there is a formula and it’s not in a pill.

It’s not in a bottle. It’s not in some chemical lab it’s inside of you. You still have the five values. This is another innate law. There are five human values and the Musketeers have a program that we teach about this from a very young age, too, right. From third grade. And we actually could take it lower, but it had to be on a different scale with them.

Cause they already exhibiting that only reason why they won’t have it in them is because they are being traumatized. Man-made trauma is after them. And then we have to stop and say, let’s find out who’s doing this and stop this now before that child turns into, oh no, another statistic that ends up in jail or killing someone or whatever it is that’s happening of negativity.

So any rate we started like the third grade level and we can go all the way up to 99 and understanding the five values that human beings all have. And one of them is, is love. And non-violent is inside of us not to be violent. It really is inside of us. Yes. It’s to be violent, but on a level of protection.

And then if it’s used incorrectly, then you end up being the attacker versus protecting yourself from someone who, or going after you. So those values are there and we teach about them because they are innate laws. You can’t get rid of them. They are there. Now. Are you willing to embrace them?

What has happened to you that you won’t embrace a, a love, a caring, um, a non-violent approach to something trying to analyze, talk it out so that there would be harmony for everyone. Um, the way in which we. Not a chemical lab is that we first start with ourselves. Do we like ourselves? Do you like the way you look? What is the beauty that you see? Is that the beauty that maybe the TV has shown you or others in your social media? Or do you like what you see in the mirror? You didn’t get to choose the family.

You want to, you didn’t get to choose your eye color. There. Wasn’t a magazine came to you and said, Hey, by the way, we’d like for you to pick out your eyes, your nose, your lips, your hair. So we can put you together. How you came out is how, how you are. Do you like who you are? Do you like yourself? Are you doing things to harm you?

Are you cutting yourself? Are you starving yourself? are you overeating?? All of these things are something that is done because something was done to you that made you start hurting yourself. All right. Um, so when you talk about being able to do forgiveness it starts with you. Then once you understand this forgiveness, then you have to show kindness.

That’s what, that’s what Rahma. Mercy. Once you’ve forgiven, starting with yourself, and you’re not being kind to yourself, then have you truly understood what forgiveness is? Are you standing on truth? Have you lied to yourself? Are you saying, oh, I like myself. I like everything about me really. Um, did you put on makeup today

and you put on the doubt? I have to say I put on makeup for the camera because it doesn’t really show that. Well, I had to learn all these things because I had never wore makeup. I liked myself just the way I like my color. I learned this from my faith. I learned the understand. This nose, this lip. This is what I was given.

I bet I should love it. He loves it. I love it. The creator gave it to me. Now, if you’ve got some form of a problem. Yes. If you can fix it, fix it. If you get still don’t hate yourself, don’t say, oh, she’s much more prettier than I am. Because the beauty that others have told you is beauty. That beauty must be what you see inside, inside, not outside.

So as you have to ask yourself the tough questions and be honest. Once you be honest, then be kind to yourself. All right. So while I’m not light-skinned or I’m not white, well, I’m not really dark, dark people gorgeous. Oh my gosh. He’s black. They’re like black coal. Gorgeous. I’m not that one says you’re really brown.

I said, I know, but they call it black. What can I tell you? So, but the point is that I hope I pray. Everyone is laughing because you shouldn’t laugh a little bit about how we, about how we have allowed ourselves to see beauty. Um, yeah, it is. Is that once you are very completely honest, then be kind to yourself and say, I like what it is, I am. Let me see if I can improve upon it. By what? Being kinder to myself. Be kinder? stop over-eating, stop under-eating, exercise, get off the couch, be kind to others, speak a kind word, smile, a smile. Can make us all in his day. He don’t know what they’re going through, but that genuine smile shows I care. And I didn’t cost you a dime. That’s the kindness. That’s the Rahma.

And once you’ve gotten to that point, then the last part of the formula is doing acts of good. You’re outside your house. You see across the street, a paper bag, plastic, especially plastic floating along the way, be careful, but go get that bag and throw it in the trash because there is so one of us, something of all creation is going to be harmed by that plastic.

Don’t tell yourself it’s not my business. I didn’t put it there. Oh, these people so nasty. Well, they, they all three may be right, but you see it. He’s given you the ability to see it. It’s not that far from you. Where is your act of kindness? Of doing good? Is it only because somebody, a photo op if they see you pick up

I like the trashcan is way too far.

Anyway. So the formula is forgiveness, true forgiveness, true mercy, and doing actions of good. We have a, I’ll just use an example. There are elderly in your neighborhoods or everywhere. And give thanks that they have lived that long and they may have been some of the nastiest people,

Mrs Greenly, she’s so mean. you may see her struggling to get across the street no matter what she has done, what are you doing?


Gissele: Who are you choosing to be?

Rukiye: So that’s the formula and it really will eradicate that man-made disease of trauma. We all have that power in our own grasp to do

I hear my son’s voice.


I, I don’t apologize to anyone when I say Suleman, you already know you’re not going to you didn’t do it when you, when you were physically with me, you know, I’m not going to go that way with anybody else. So why are you, why are you …. think about it, mom. No, we’re not doing that.

Okay. So it’s the kind of conversation I’ll have with him, because I remember something, a conversation that he and I had.

it is so hard for a mother.

Gissele: It is.

Rukiye: And they think, oh, well, no is breaking my heart to do this, but if I don’t at least. Take a moment to correct you without harm without being braking, bitter hurting you starring you just gently, gently wake up. Don’t don’t touch that. Don’t put that in. Don’t stop, stop, stop, that’s love. And I remember, I remember having to,

pull him out of the creek , he wanted to go see the bull frog. We can get a net and pull the bull frog, but he

was like, Um, not that far from him. I think I was the kind of mother that kind of looked. I let my children grow, but not, you know not go too far.

Gissele: You were discerning

Rukiye: and I see him going into to the creek

and stopped a little bit. So stop. Will you please stop. Look up. Don’t get hit in the Creek bull frog bull frog, bull frog. He has another way to do this. So I taught him. And now when you, later, later on, he gives the net, he goes over and he pulls out a snake.

These are my memories.

Gissele: They are joy filled. They bring you much joy.

Rukiye: And though you had to, at times scold them . Never harm that love them enough to teach them how to keep reaching up till they reach their star. And they will do amazing things. So turning your question. It is the true forgiveness showing true forgiveness, true mercy. And do I accept good kindness to first yourself and others?

If you’re not kind to yourself, how in the world do you think you’re going to be really kind to others? There can be no ulterior motive to it. You can’t see what you’re going to gain from it. Don’t do that. That’s not true forgiveness.

Gissele: Oh, good. You answered my question before I said in which I was going to ask, how do you know if it’s true forgiveness?

How do you, maybe you’re telling yourself that you forgiving, but how do you know if it’s true?

Rukiye: Because you have no, you received nothing from it. Let me put it this way, given an example. And it’s a truth is actually many of you may be able to recall something. Somebody did something for you, are you like, okay, thank you so very much,

maybe they needed something. They wanted something. You could not give it to them. And they remind you. Remember when I did such and such for you, this can be a family member. Oh, see your gratitude. I’m sorry. Did you do this? Because you thought I should be giving you something back. We shouldn’t have done it because you weren’t doing it for me.

You were doing it for you because you had something else in mind that you want it later on down the road. And you wanted me to be able to give it to you. The anger or the displeasure that they show we’ll show you why that they really, if they did what they do truly to help you. Um, I tell all of my relatives don’t come and borrow money from me.

Don’t do that. If I have issues, if you can return it, I am very thankful. I’m delighted . If you can help others, please help others when they don’t come and borrow more from me, don’t borrow money. Don’t do that. You need something. Just ask me if I have it, it’s yours.

And that’s how you, the person was borrowing or say you need that help. Well, no, I will never look at it. And again, I will not bring it back. Do you remember in 19 29, 19 92, I did such and such and such for you. Well, you didn’t do it for me. You did it for you and you have to remind me that I owe you.

That’s how you,

Gissele: um, so it’s, it’s without expectation without attachment, it’s just giving from the place of

Rukiye: love. I

Gissele: wanted to go back to the concept of, um, that you had talked about. Um, now you didn’t use the word self love or self compassion. Uh, you used the word self-kindness. Um, but I think we think about it along similar lines, which is really.

It’s about truly accepting ourselves, truly understanding that we are whole and complete and that we’re always enough and worthy. Um, and I think this is the reason why we, we are living in the world that we are because of fear. We have this fear, this fear, like even greed is fearful of fear, of lack. Right?

You have to accumulate more because you’re afraid. And you know, that was the whole concept of colonization needing to accumulate and possess and take. And. Um, and control. And so, you know, yeah. And one of the interesting things, when you and I were chatting off camera, we, we talked about how some of the most powerful people that we can continue to consider powerful people are the least powerful people, like people in power in governments, people that have accumulated all this because they’re in fear and they need to put power over when you are truly in your own mastery and your own power.

And you understand that you’re enough. You don’t need to disempower other people. You don’t need to take things from them.

Rukiye: Yeah. So it’s just, yeah,

Gissele: you don’t need to do harm to someone else. Yeah.

Rukiye: And it was funny that you said about people in power because you were to look under the curtain.

Remember, I’m all children, rich, poor checkerboard, blue, green, whatever. They all come with five things. Oh yeah. They don’t know anything about money. They don’t know anything about anything other than they’re happy. And the one around them, they are, they just bring, they just give them love without children.

Don’t say, oh, I’m loving you because you gave me the X-Box. No, you can get that love from them just because you’re there around them. Now ask yourself about fascism. We always think about fascism in the terms of government oppressing other government. Do you know? The fascism actually starts in the home.

It actually starts in the home fascism. So colonization itself, how are you treating your family, mother or father? How are you treating your family? Are you being dictatorial over them, or are you being kind, or the kind of balance of love and discipline without harm so that they can grow to the kind of individual that not you created.

You can create this individual. You were given this as a gift, but do you know what they have inside of them? Do you know what this was given to them when they were born and it’s out there and they’ve got to reach for it. You have some children that are prodigies. You didn’t put that in them. You have some children that as a math Wiz or reading, right.

Or, or a, uh, a person that’s so curious, curious, now that they will discover is something that you you’re like, oh my gosh, who, who discovered pasteurization. So the milk was no longer giving that tuberculosis. Right. It’s just like, there is, but every child, some special gift of wonder for mankind, not of harm.

There’s no wonder of harm. Harm doesn’t come with a lot of thoughts you can harm without really thinking about now when someone becomes a path pathological and that nature is because they began to see, they begin to have that man-made trauma that has never healed. And they’re seeing they’re going further to see how far they can do more harm because they never healed.

No one has ever addressed what happened to them as a child. So it has to be addressed. So I is it’s understanding that is not your position in life is not your families. It’s not whether you’re rich or poor. It’s not that at all. And it first starts in the home of how you, you who have been chosen to be a parent.

Everybody isn’t a parent just because you want to be a parent doesn’t mean you will be how you treating your family. Do you even understand what it means to be a fascist? When you look at colonization all that is nothing was fascist behavior negativity brought to suppress someone else and not see who you really are.

What happened to you? What suppressed you? What colonized you in your environment? And it is the fuel that is that feeds violence, racism, and fascism criminalization. And it starts absolutely in the home.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for saying that we wholeheartedly agree.

We cannot create

a world without racism until we stop othering other people.

Rukiye: In our own home. Yeah.

Gissele: Until we see each other

Rukiye: well, we see how many parents may have said, I wish you would just like your sister or your brother, or how many siblings pick and bully on each other because who’s bullying them. Oh, I’m sorry that mom chooses who they’re going to, what treat the worst no balance or they love one more than the other.

You can’t do that. That love has to be equally shared. Yeah. In your heart, you might find a little, but you can’t do that. You can’t display that out. These are your children and they are a gift to you to do good. Not to do bad with them.

Gissele: You know, we have so much more to learn from children. It’s we always see ourselves as you know, the parents are here and they have expertise and authority, and then the kids are here.

But, um, I used to work in child protection, child welfare, and, uh, yeah, in one of the things that I used to talk to young people a lot and, and their families as well. And one of the things that I used to hear also for my colleagues, not, not to criticize them, but it’s just, it’s a different perspective is they didn’t understand why the children love their parents.

No matter how they treated them, they couldn’t grasp it. They didn’t understand. They’re like, oh, look, children are so non common sensical that they will love someone that will hurt them. But children see. They see us as we, they see people as who they truly are.

They see the spirit, they see what they could be. And so there’s always this desire for them to say, you can always choose different, right? That doesn’t mean that you’ve got to leave a child in a bad situation. It’s just that I think that we could learn a lot more from kids. If we just got our ego out of the

Rukiye: way, sorry, get out of our way, get out of our own way.

Your colleagues.  if they understood the innate law of how children are born, they will understand why that child has that. And that forgiveness, even when the parent has harmed them, burned them, broke their arms. Really humiliated them. If the parents showed even a slightest love the child is okay.

They do inside their. Not yet inside that heart, they’re saying, and they’re ready to forgive and to help hope that he’s better. Now, once the child reaches a certain age and it doesn’t get better, then the child starts to try to protect themselves. That’s when they stopped reaching up. That’s when it becomes really this, violence that we keep saying what’s wrong with our children.

Well, you know, now what’s wrong without children. What happened with them is the question that must always be asked . Our judges, our prosecutors protective agencies or, um, every law enforcement must ask themselves and be trained to ask themselves what happened to that child. What happened.

You mentioned about your being in the services of helping children. I am a court appointed special advocate for traumatized children. I’m a Casa.

I advocate for children who are in traumatized home situations and come towards them with the only purpose in mind, this is stop that traumatization happening to that child. It is not easy when parents will not get out of their own way to the wrong that they’re doing it. They’re lying. They’re exaggerating.

They’re uh, they’re spoiled. Stop. What happened to you that this happened to you and you find out it happened to them? Well, my parents raised me. I didn’t come out so bad. Really. You think you didn’t come out too bad?

I hear that more often than I care, I didn’t turn out so bad. Dad used the belt. I used a whip. I use a in iron cord and they look at me. I mean, well, my parents did and look at me. Yeah, I am looking at, do you see your child? Do you really think you need to scar them mentally or physically or both in order to get them to understand that they may be doing this wrong and you need them to do something or, or are you just wanting to be the one in control?

Gissele: what, I, I know that, um, and having spoken to parents as well as is that, you know, it’s, it’s so funny. They don’t feel powerful, right? Like it’s, it’s the need to put control over that. Sometimes the kids are a mirror of who they’re being and they don’t like to see that.

I would love to see a child protection system that helps parents be their best selves. Right. That helps them be compassionate and kind and forgiving towards themselves so that they could do that healing work. Because like you have said hurt people, hurt people. Those parents can’t give to the kids, what they don’t have for


Rukiye: Right. They don’t know. And this is why we developed the human values program. We have the human values program along with the survivor workshop. So they’ve, they’ve married together. We’ve married them together. And in order to start with the two include, I shouldn’t say, start with, but include the parents.

Sothe project that we have. It’s called the human values project. And it is so, so that we can take that program, human values program, the workshop for survivors and do it both with the parent and with the child. If we can’t get to the parent right away, we start with the child, right? Because parents are not ready to admit.

They’re not, they’re not ready to work. It’s very hard for them, especially if they’re a single parent and they’ve had to do deal with a lot of financial situations that our own governments, city, state, and federal have put in place that keeps some people here and all the people up here, We’ve got to work on those things.

Um, and then you have the banking industry. So that if you’re in a challenged area, the very more, uh, fluid banks that give huge kind of loans, they help you get a nice house, get into a very nice neighborhood, so forth. They’re not in those neighborhoods. So then you, you, you barely get into the neighborhood of the challenge and then they don’t have a lot of perks for them.

So it’s just, there’s a lot of things that happen. What we do is we start working with the child and the child goes home and they’re starting to act a lot better. Even when the parent becomes angry, yells at them, the child is able to handle it a lot, lot better because they’re understanding something is wrong with mom. With dad.

They being challenged about something, some pressure they’re under and the parents begin to see in the child. Being a lot better and not lashing back out. We have a lot, and then they want to know what’s going on. So we are being welcoming and we bring them in. If we can get our court systems to really embrace our project programs, we would actually have them both together and they would go through this course and they would see the transformation in themselves and help us see the children and the children see them.

But we do have a program that can help them we’ve even put it so that it’s, uh, first responders know that. And I mean, did you know that our first responders, they have a cafe door now, many of them come into the services, but because it’s so traumatizing, they’re going back just as fast as they come. And remember your first responders are human.

They also need the kind of training to, to be able to deal with people in traumatic situations. They don’t. So we development. So the first year and the people in the community that they serve, they’re going to be able to come into the class together and learn together. So it’s going to be easier to help them.

They can help that person in that traumatic situation and that other person can receive them. Example some of the first responders, they go into a challenge area and they’re already looked at negatively. What are you here for? What do you want. .

I’m trying to help broken people and it doesn’t work. So we want to bring them to the table together, both the community and our first responders that begin to see each other as humans. Okay.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.I think one of the things that, I’m very passionate about is the concept of self compassion, especially for people like the parents who are experienced so much shame, shame, and guilt, and they can’t get out of that cycle of shame because they’ll do more drugs or they’ll hurt the children more and so on and they can’t get out of it.

whereas self-compassion enables them to have that a little bit about self-forgiveness

 They really have forgotten that they don’t know if it exists anymore, but I agree with you. Go ahead.

Gissele: Well, I was just going to say, I know somebody is going to ask me this from our audience. So can you just go over the, the, the, innate laws just quickly?

Just name them just to make sure we got them all. Oh, there’s so many.

Rukiye: Cause I know

Gissele: somebody wouldn’t be asking me. what about the, is there a top five?

Rukiye: There’s a top five. Okay.

And the others will start opening up to you. First of all, understanding. And we talked about how children have all five. Yeah. And what are the five innate laws? The five things that make up the innate love, who all human beings are, how we are connected as one single cell. It’s that love that forgiveness, that kindness, understanding all of that is in there.

They, the five human values there, they’re there. And people say, well, if you’ve been so traumatized, you probably won’t have it. No, you didn’t put this in you and you can’t take it out. It can be smothered. You can fight against it because you’ve been hurt so bad. And this is your only way that you’ve been protecting yourself is to be the, be the opposite of what they are.

But you can go back to them. Uh, or you can finally embrace them in the proper manner and you will find your life. You really seriously find your life so much more in harmony with all of creation and is really we’ll start with your body because a lot of us are getting ill. We have illnesses like really we are so sick.

I’m 71 years old.

I’ve not had really doctors problems. They’ve problem. I even have that I do deal with, I was born with that. It was given to me, my problem was with the feet other than that, because I try to have this positive note. I have the understanding of the five innate human values that we have and I embraced them and they really.

Keep my body healthy, healthy mind, healthy spirit, healthy soul. It really does take away those wrinkles.

Gissele: I gotta use the five values (laugh)

Rukiye: And once you you’re like, oh, okay. How so? That’s two number three is understanding about water, the water. What is, why? Why is it so important that we have water, clean water now, clean water. Isn’t ionized water.water that comes from the purest of source for the earth, which is granted.Or what is really high, high, where we haven’t really messed with the atmosphere. . And that’s really good. Clean water has minerals in it. It says it has the minerals and nutritional stuff that we need in it. Don’t take everything out of the water. You have nothing. Well, why do you even need to have that? Because what is the human body made up of again, understanding, innate laws, water.

All right. That’s number five.

Rukiye: And this kind of comes together. And these are the plants, the green, the trees, they make our oxygen. So if you want to be able to breathe on that, Stop poking fun at tree huggers.

You need to hug a few trees. Just self.

Gissele: Yeah. It’s so amazing how we don’t understand how we are all interconnected and interconnected with the earth. And if we harm the earth well harming ourselves. So do we have such short-sightedness

Rukiye: yes, we do. Yeah. That’s the arrogance. That’s what fascism brings. When you start embracing the fascist behavior, starting again in the home, you forget all the connections of other things that you need.

unless you are breathing, unless you keep the air clean and you keep that greenery around, you will not exist here. These innate loss embrace them instead of fighting against them, find ways to do better and take care of your ecosystem and your family. And it starts with you

You just have to get out of your way, get out of your own way and stop hurting. Yeah. And

Gissele: keep your in one of the things that you know, you’re such an inspiration, it’s going to keep your heart open.

Yes. Heart open heart open. Yeah. You can’t do it any other way.

Rukiye: That’s also an innate law. You can’t control that heart.

I can make my hearts beat slower. Okay. So can I, if I concentrate long enough and breathe a certain way. Yeah. Your heartbeat go down down, but. If you stop that heart, can you start it again? No. You can’t. Innate Law, and on top of that, on top of that.

Guess what the spiritual heart is simply not in your control. So keeping that heart filled with kindness and giving and loving keeps you healthy spiritually, mentally, physically better protect that heart only when you get it’s.

Rukiye: The only one you get.

Gissele: Is there, is it by following the laws do we have a greater connection with our spiritual self?

Rukiye: Yes. Yes. You didn’t bring yourself into this world. I love, I love the saying I brought into this world and I’ll take you out.

That’s a fascist, not just scary. Your coming into this world was by his design When someone asks me, what is your, I think they call it now be a pronoun or something.

Yeah. I, I had to say to this person just recently, a few days ago, I said, is that important or is it more important that you are human beings for me? I am human. And I look at you as a human. I care about you as a human. If something hurts you, it hurts me. And not because of your pronouns, but because you are human and we’re all connected.

If we can start having that understanding, embracing that understanding, and then reflecting that understanding our whole world will come in or. And the violence, racism, fascism, and to see this, that VRF that VRF will be eradicated and it’s not hard. It first starts

with you.

Gissele: What a perfect way to end. I did have just one more question and that is, is there anything you want to tell the audience about what you guys are working on with the Musketeers or working on or what you do, or you know, where to find you in your story or your association?

Rukiye: We have nine projects and all of them have programs.

So if you want to know more about this and I really pray that you will, because it will, it’s gonna change your whole persona of how you’re looking at dealing with even your own self in your own circumference. Then contact us at www.themusketeerassociation.org, if you put in.com or.net net, you can still find us.

Oh yeah, because we said the whole world is our home. The whole world of mankind is a flower garden and we need to make sure we can meet on reach each other just by the touch. So reach out to us. We have the young heroes and peace award program. The first of its kind that’s celebrates children stopping saying no to violence, racism, fascism. We have a process that you do that can be a, not be, they could be nominated. We’ll pick one, ever. We do it every three months, we pick on the young person who has shown the values of understanding stopping VRF from the age of eight, seventh grade, all the way to college.

So even in college, you have this. So we have that for the young people. We have the gossip program, which is grocery delivery for shut-ins plus people that are in, in the challenged neighborhoods. 25% of the people have shut-ins now for whatever reason, and they can’t get out. The stores, they to get out to where the food is given free, they can get out there.

They’re in wheelchairs, they’re in beds. They can’t get out of bed. In other words, someone has to help them to go to the bathroom but they still have dignity. And if what we’re doing is making them feel like they’re in a zoo where we bring food to them already cooked here, eat what we give you, how, how does that build dignity and respect for them?

So we started this program for that, but there are so many others. We got the flower pot project right here, which actually will. So we took an ancient technology, married with the latest technology, and it’s going to bring beauty and togetherness, bringing both sides of the street together, as well as information in your community where you can reach out someone’s being bullied.

They can’t talk to their parents. They can’t talk to school. No, one’s listening that pot. You click it. If you click the QR code that’s on it. It’ll open up. And that child will be able to dial a number to get help. Beautiful. We getting children’s snatched out about own neighborhoods. They’re literally getting kidnapped out of our own neighborhoods, but where the people have fallen in these neighborhoods, that bottle pot will be there.

Click has a locator on it. You’ve now given the child 24 hours more to be found before they’re sold into sex slavery, because police can start right there. That’s where the child was picked up there. You saw it, you can’t stop it, but the pot is there and that’s where it’s happening. And then they you’ve given them more time.

You know, something about a cold case. You will be able to click that part, say what, you know, nobody knows what you’re doing on that phone. And you relieved your heart from the cause. I told you, you can’t control that heart. Yeah. It can a pressure off of you told the truth about why something happened and now, you know, but some, some ending for the family whose name, the family of the child that’s on there.

So we’ve got that. And so many, many, many others, like I said, we’re going to stop these children from being buried alive. And we’re going to get those children who have been buried a lot out of prison, but in a particular way so that they can become more productive when they come into the society.

Rukiye: And they will feel a self worth that they have not felt they have never felt. And they will be the most productive people you can ever imagine because it’s of gratitude and you showed true forgiveness, true mercy, and you did active, good by bringing them into the community and welcome them. And we will have trained them how to handle that.

But anyway, please reach out to us. You can call, we have a text number , uh, It’s 1 9 3 7 3 0 4 8 8 5 4. I refused us, have a landline , a TextNow you don’t want to talk to us. I get it. But you want someone to reach out to you? I get that too. Then you text us. We will reach out to you. There’s no obligation. You need some help, or you just need someone to talk to that’s who we are, we are your family.

The Musketeer association has been built on the spiritual connection of all human beings across this globe. And I’m starting first at home because that’s the best place, what did I say? It starts at home first with you. I have a beautiful host. Who’s asked me some marvelous questions, allowed me to express myself even more and welcome you into my home.


Gissele: you. Thank you. So, so, so much for being on the show and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Um, yeah. Please reach out to the organization and see how you can help. Yeah. Thank you so so much. Oh, I was so moved.

Rukiye: Well, let everyone know also that we are complete leased certified we’re certified.

bonified, validated. Even Facebook has given us a clean bill of health and that they’ve given us the donation button. So you can donate to the Musketeers association we, the musketeer association absolutely out here putting everything into the community, 85% of our donations, 85 go to the people.

We’re putting programs together long before we don’t even have all the, we need more funding. We’ve definitely do that, but it’s not stopping us been doing even the smallest thing we have to do. So, I appreciate you letting me do an ad.

Something. It doesn’t matter that you’re in Canada well you think we can’t reach you. We need Musketeers in Canada. Canadians reach out.

We actually do have one or two over there. Anyway, we could use a whole lot more. All it, all it costs is your heart. So if you go onto the page, www.themusketeerassociation.net, you can click the button, the menu and see join us. Or I think it’s right there saying, join us. And it’s also a petition to say, stop VRF.

You signed that with your heart, and we’re going to send you a beautiful certificate. No, we don’t bother you. Well, what can I do? Or I have this skillset and you’ll look at the programs, projects, and programs they have, and you say, Hey, I can help with that. And we say,

we’ll say welcome, welcome. That’s how you get involved. And you do as much as you can. And if only thing that you have for us

is a prayer.

I promise you

we’ll move. So don’t you not, not pray for us when you can donate, donate, when you can bring your physical bodies and bring your physical body. We are an association. We won’t take you from what you already do, unless what you’re doing is wrong. We’re taking your away because you’ll see the truth. Come to us. We thank you so much.

So the musketeer association coming up for may in Cleveland, Ohio, we have a CAISO event coming and the theme of the wee CAISO event is human trafficking. It is on, it will be holding it on May 29th introducing people to what really is human trafficking and how we ourselves are adding to it. By the choices that we choose to even watch on our social media pages we’re contributing to it.

[You can find Rukiye’s most popular video here: https://youtu.be/0Z5SGI5Jdns]

Gissele: Oh that’s such important awareness. So for sure please check it out.

(c) Music: Mission Ready by Ketsa, 2019. No changes made. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Ketsa/Raising_Frequecy/Mission_Ready

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