Transcript:
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Gissele: hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast, with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world.
Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about parenting with heart, and we’ll be talking to Joe. Joe has worked with children and parents and families for the previous 10 years. He started out as a qualified teacher. he then quickly became interested in helping children and families on a deeper, more holistic level by becoming a play therapist before training and compassionate inquiry.
And at the Newfeld Institute with a background in psychology, play therapy, teaching, and now compassionate inquiry. He’s a particularly keen in working in supporting families, parents and adolescents, and he’s also just started his own podcast called The Caring Instinct. Welcome to the podcast, Joe Atkinson.
Hi, Joe.
Joe: Hi. Thanks for having
Gissele: me. Oh, no. Thank you for joining us. So looking forward to [00:01:00] chatting about this. Yeah, I was wondering Yeah, sorry,
Joe: go ahead. I said me too. Yeah,
Gissele: yeah, yeah. I was wondering if you could start by telling our audience how you got interested in, Compassionate Inquiry.
Joe: well, to do, I, I’ll have to go back a little bit further to I, I, before, I started teaching, I was studying addiction, psychology and counseling. That was what I kind of did fresh out of university. And, there it was,I read a book by Gabor Matte. . Mm-hmm. very famous in Canada and around the world.
Mm-hmm. in the realm of hungry ghosts and, About addiction and, and, as I moved into childhood, you know, he, he was also writing about child development and mm-hmm. , A D H D and other books. So I kind of just was always following his, what he was doing and, and, so that took me to, when I started working with children, I was always following his stuff.
And the story goes, I had children myself, they’re now four and two, and I wanted to, um, I wanted, I didn’t wanna work with children [00:02:00] and go home to children. I wanted a bit of, a bit of balance there, to be honest, . So my intention was to start working with, with, with adults and, and do something a bit, you know, have a bit of balance.
And it just so happened that Compassion Inquiry just started up around that time, so I was just straight into it really.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. for those who might not know, can you tell us a little bit about what Compassionate Inquiry is?
Joe: Compass Compassionate Inquiry is a psychotherapeutic, approach developed by, Dr.
Gabel Matte. it’s, it’s an approach to, to counseling. and it’s kind of a, a cocktail of, of how he’s, developed, approach of the process of working, of being with people in, over the years, which he was, I think he was kind of put under, under pressure to, share with others. He didn’t really think it was a thing and then, he decided to do it and it’s, it’s taken, taken off and, you know, been a big hit.
And, I’m really grateful to, to have, studied and been a part of it. Yeah.
Gissele: [00:03:00] Why did you think that he didn’t think it was anything that he should share?
Joe: because, the way he talks about it is he, it was just how he would, he naturally, interacted with people. Mm-hmm. and, he was a doctor. He worked with addictions as well, and he, he wasn’t a, a therapist with, with training.
Mm-hmm. . but he became very famous and, and would do a lot of talk. A lot of research would write books and he would spend five minutes with someone or 20 minutes with someone. And it, in my mind, it kind of developed in this cocktail of as he learned and put things together and intuitively formed it just, so for him, I think it was just something he did.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. So it naturally flowed
Joe: through him. Yeah. It just naturally flowed. If someone would say, you know, no, that’s a thing. Oh, maybe it’s not a thing, but, yeah. And
Gissele: what does it
Joe: entail? it’s, um, it’s, there’s, we would call them stepping stones. So there’s,it’s an inquiry and we might be guided by our own curiosity and, and interested in what’s, what’s showing up in the [00:04:00] moment.
in entails a lot of body work, noticing feelings going into childhood, and, you know, finding out about coping mechanisms and patterns, beliefs that might underlie the behavior, which we’re really interested in, exploring and, and, and which show up and manifest as, as issues in our, in our, in our lives.
Really. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that’s why I find the link to, with children really interesting as well, because, you know, with children we’re very interested in, in behaviors and pulling and, and pulling and pulling at, pulling and pushing at behaviors and shaping them very early, so. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I like the links.
Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And I, and I know one of the key aspects of the, compassion piece is the curiosity, is the shifting away from the place of judgment. Yes. do you think it’s easier for us to do that with children than it is with adults? Oh,
Joe: depends. I think it [00:05:00] depends on a lot of things. For some, for me personally, it’s, it’s, it’s always been easier with children.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think for some people it’s harder with children and some people it’s just different on different days as well. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it’s j it depends on a lot of things. It could be anything. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What’s it like for you?
Gissele: I think it’s, . I think it used to be, like you said, very similar in terms of, I used to be easier for, for me to be more, I would say caring, kind, open, curious with kids.
I think I historically expected a adults to know better. Yeah. whereas, now it’s more, the more I became compassionate towards more loving and compassionate towards myself, the more that I didn’t need other people to act differently. And so I was then able to be more open and more curious about them.
Yeah. Okay. But in the beginning it was, it was definitely more. Okay. The kids. Yeah. More likely.
Joe: And I think there’s a lot of people and, and I [00:06:00] think some, but on the other hand there’s some people that, oh, we really, we really need to get these kids up to, you know, up to standards or socialize and stuff like that.
And maybe with adults they think they’re, you know, it’s too late or something like that. So they can be really. , maybe the opposite.
Gissele: Yeah. And I think you, you raised a really important, topic, which is, how the school system is sort of structured, right? Yes, yes. I think the school system is structured in a way I see it in my kids’ schools, is structured more around the achievement, less so much on the social emotional pieces.
Like to me, I would love to see, schools teach about self-love, self-compassion, healthy relationships, like those key things that we’re always, always striving for. And yet the focus really is on math, arithmetic. Like tho those things that are more like, yeah, achievement base,
Joe: what your, you can, you have, you do have those things, but they’re kind of like, you know, they’re on the outskirt, they’re not, it’s not a [00:07:00] central part, it’s a mm-hmm.
it’s, it’s like, okay. It’s almost like, okay, we’ll put it in there. Kind you mean
Gissele: like as an afterthought.
Joe: Yeah. And, it’s, yeah, something that’s around and, and, you know, people take it seriously and it’s not a joke, but it’s not, it’s not as central as it as it should be. Hmm.
Gissele: Yeah. So, yeah, and it’s interesting that you mentioned that because, you know, to me that’s sort of fundamental, especially in, in like when you look at bullying and harassment that can happen in schools.
It can be sort of challenging for children if they don’t, are not able to regulate their own emotions. So, and if they’re not able to regulate their own emotions, it’s hard for them to learn. And so you would think that there would be an invested interest in teaching those skills so that the kids can absorb more of the information that is being taught.
But yeah, it’s, it’s sort of strange that way. Do you think that the school system sort of needs. [00:08:00] Some revamping or do you think that it’s, it’s good as it is, or what are your thoughts on the subject. Oh,
Joe: definitely. Yeah. I, I for sure it needs, revamping for me, it’s, it’s really lost in the uk and there’s a lot, there’s so many children with, they’ll get diagnosed with a D H D with, with, with a whole number of different, disorders you might pull them in.
One thing I notice, here in the uk, and I think it happens, in other countries, is that there’s, there’ll be certain behaviors that might manifest oppositionality or, there’s frustration or there’s, there’s, there’s the, there was this acting out and the school’s general approach is, there must be a problem with this child.
And so that’s where the attention is. And we, and then we’ll, so we’ll get together. We say, okay, what’s, what? Must be wrong with it? Maybe he’s got, there’s something wrong with his, brain or something’s, so a disorder or something like that. And that’s where the energy goes. and it’s [00:09:00] very hard to step back and, and look at the environment they’re in and see it as, as, as part of it as well.
And we kind of just get lost, lost in that. And then what happens is families get lost in that thought as well. They, they go down the path. They might look for a specialist in, in, in whatever, and, and we kind of get a bit lost, but everything points towards the child as the one who’s got the problem. Yeah.
And in, in a way That’s right. They’re manifesting that, you know, that that’s where we can, there are issues. You can see that. But it also gives that message to the child that you are a problem. And it just makes things much harder.
Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And it’s interesting, I, I think of that quote that talks about how, you know, if a flower doesn’t bloom, you don’t blame the flower
Yeah. You look at the conditions that which Yeah. Prevented the flower from coming up, right? Yeah. but you’re right, we spend so much of our energy and attention on the blaming thing, right? Because it can’t be [00:10:00] the system, the system is set up in a specific way. And I think what I, what we don’t do well is deal with outliers, right?
Whether it be too intelligent, what people consider too intelligent from an IQ perspective or not, they’re the, the systems are mostly made up for the people that fit a box, they fit the 80% box. And for those people that are out outliers, rather than the systems being able to accommodate, it’s sort of like you as a kid have to adjust to these systems, which makes it more challenging.
Joe: Yeah, for sure. And I think, Yeah, you’re right about the outliers but also, I, I think the people that are don’t get a notice are in there. It’s almost setting them up for, issues later in life as well. They kind of, they almost go sail through school, maybe without any big issues or anything, but they come out of it whenever it is 18, 19 to it’s 16 to 20, and they have no idea who they are.
Yeah. They’re,there might be depression or they, they just, [00:11:00] they’re ju they’re very lost. And the, the school system works very much, you know, you have, you do your year and then we pass you onto someone else and it’s very narrowly for, you know. Okay. I’ll, we want to get you up to a, yeah, here we have like, great, you know, a number seven or eight, and then I’ll pass you over to the next and then we’ll get you up.
Yeah. And that’s. It’s, it’s really hard to see the big picture.
Gissele: Yeah. I had heard that it was sort of like the, factory work, right? Like you just kind of like piecemeal things. Right. And that was, it was structured similarly to factory work and the times also align with people working. And so it’s, it’s very much structured that way rather than self-directed learning or self-interested.
Whatever you’re, you, you’re interested in, you’d gravitate. And it’s interesting to me that the schools that are, that are not publicly funded work that way. Right? Like the Montessori is All of those, those kinds of schools. it seems a little bit strange to me that, that we’ve [00:12:00] sort of created these systems.
Joe: There’s a guy, Ken Robinson, but here, he died recently actually, but he’s got a TED Talk and, in one of them, he said if you went to any business with the, with the, with the school model mm-hmm. , they would think it was crazy. I e you know, you, you tell them, okay, we’re gonna get your workers from nine to 10.
We’re gonna get them all to do accounting for an hour. Then we’re gonna ring the bell. We’re gonna make them get up, go to a different room, forget about accounting, and do marketing for an hour. Then we’re gonna ring a bell. Then we’re gonna get them to get up, go to a different room, and they’re gonna do, sales for an hour.
Gissele: the business would just laugh. They would just laugh at you for, for if you were trying, would try and get them to implement that model. It’s, it’s a weird way to do things.
Joe: Mm-hmm. and I think schools were, the whole reason they came about was to, the main reason first was to get people into factories.
Gissele: Mm. [00:13:00] But I don’t think we’ve mo modernized them too since that time. Right. It’s like, I think, I think it’s based on a very outdated
Joe: model. Yeah. It’s like we’ve been sucked into them and even if we’ve changed ourself, which we’re, we’re still kind of plugged into that system.
So it’s, it Yeah. Even if we don’t have the same intentions, it doesn’t work.
Gissele: Yeah. And even I was reflecting on, so I’ve done some post, graduate degrees and, even those systems don’t seem to really work, like with the ability now to learn on online platforms, to learn from different sources to Google anything.
Right. It, it just makes you wonder how these systems are really gonna survive. Like it’s, it’s kind of seems sort of outdated, right? Like Yeah. Yeah. It seems sort of like these systems really aren’t Yeah. Helping
Joe: us be optimal. And the, [00:14:00] ironic thing for me is that, my kids are foreign too. So I’ve seen, you know, they’ve not, my daughter’s only just started school.
Mm-hmm. and you know, already they’ve learned so much and they’ve not, you know, the learning process is very natural. Yeah. In a way we get in, we get in the way of it more than we help it.
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And they’re so, they’re, they gravitate naturally to learning. Hmm. But we sort like, these systems sort of, I think make it harder.
Yeah. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the work that you do with parents, because, especially in parenting, compassion is definitely needed as a parent, myself and you as a parent. can you talk about some of the challenges that you have seen in working with people and we can, you know, talk a little bit about some of the challenges that come from parenting.
Joe: Yeah, sure. So, where do I st it, along with a similar line of what’s happening with the schools, and education is, to me [00:15:00] almost feels similar for parenting as a, as a general, it’s here that, you know, you can go into the books stop here, and there was, there’s thousands of books, well, maybe thousands of exaggeration, but it feels like over hundreds of books on, you know, this is how you parent.
Yeah. this is what you do. Slightly different, lenses or ways to do it. But this is almost like it’s a skill to be that we have to learn or all of a sudden and it’s, it’s almost like we’ve lost our confidence to, to parent. And, I, my belief is that that’s come from a part we’ve lost, we’ve lost our connection to ourselves and.
in some ways. And part of that might be that compassion that, that, that is so useful in parenting. So what I would, if, if I could do it, if I do, that’s great if, but my intention is to help parents to kind of reconnect to themselves and find that kind of parenting [00:16:00] instinct within them. Mm-hmm. I really don’t wanna be telling people what to do or, this is how we do, because it puts us in a, almost like a dependent role, which is actually feeds the anxiety of, of the children that they might be with.
Cuz they might, they might need another session or to read that next book or stuff like that. I want to empower parents or give them that confidence to, you know, that they know what they’re doing, even if they’ve not read the book.
Gissele: Yeah. I love that you said that, because we feel the same way, which is like,
You can read a thousand books. Yeah. But it’s you doing the work. It’s you doing the, the showing up, the difficult conversations. They’re leaning in. They’re leaning out.
It is about tapping into your inner wisdom as a parent. And so I love that you said that we really have lost our connections and our trust. our trust of ourselves. Yeah. why do you think that is though?
Joe: For a whole load of reasons. I think it’s,let’s go back to the [00:17:00] schools as well. Cause it, I mean, it’s almost like their, if the intention of the school is to produce factory workers, it’s kind of an intention of it to disconnect from, from yourself as well.
So, it comes at from many different angles. It feels, and we just lose. We just, we just lose it. We just lose it. And it’s a very, my personal experience very, even when I feel like I have it as well, it’s a very fragile thing to hold onto. You know, I might have it, but then something happen, you know, and it’s, it’s just gone.
You know, it’s not there. It doesn’t come back for a few hours or you, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s something that really needs our attention. We’re, , our attention has been hijacked as well with phones and, yeah. social media and, and entertainment and, and these kind of things. We’re just, so many things in societies seem to be pulling us away from ourselves.
Mm-hmm. or advertising. That’s what it’s, that’s how it works. We are on, and [00:18:00] so it’s a very, you know, we’re going against the flow in this, this work. Yeah. It’s, it’s natural in the sense it’s coming back to ourselves, but at the same time, very unnatural in our environment. So it’s, it’s strange, isn’t it?
Gissele: Yeah, it is.
It, you know, as, as you were talking, I think one of the things that I truly believe is that we tend to give our authority away to other people and to other things. Right. And so we, there is an element of us, you know, and I say us because it’s all of us as human beings that have created this world, that we have these systems, these things.
there’s an element of us that it’s like you almost don’t wanna accept responsibility for what you’ve created. And so there’s a group of us that are okay with people telling them what to do. It’s okay with following these rules. It’s okay with the right, because then you don’t have to accept responsibility for your life and what you created.
[00:19:00] Yeah. But the, you know, you mentioned manifestation earlier. The ability to manifest into, align to all of the good in your life comes from the accepting responsibilities, okay, this is what I’ve created, or this is what is currently happening. I’ve contributed to this. And from here, from my point of power, I can move towards focusing my attention and energy on what I do when I create.
Yeah. And so there is an el an element of, okay, have I, I’ve absconded my responsibility to other people as experts. , right. Or from this book or that book or whatever, but then are not really stepping up into our own power. And, and that makes it really challenging for us to work from that place. Right?
Yeah. Especially in parenting.
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, in that sense, it’s a very, you know, leading parents into a vulnerable territory almost just to, rediscover that responsibility or, or find that it can, when you get there, you’re gonna [00:20:00] feel everything, all the highs and all the lows. Yeah,
Gissele: exactly.
Because don’t you cuz don’t we want somebody to fix it? Like I I’m a parent of teenagers. You’re, you have little guys, right? Yeah. So I’m a parent of, you have teens and pre-teens and sometimes the stuff that they go through was not stuff I went through. Very different challenges. Sometimes it feels so heavy and you don’t know how to help them, but you can’t save them.
Right? And so, but you wish somebody would just like, you know, would just tell you how to, how to do it right. And you can’t, and it, and that uncertainty, the unknown can feel really uncomfortable, I’ve said this to my teens at times and we have a great relationship, but there’s times when they’re going through their most challenging times when I say, I don’t know how to help you.
I don’t know, What do you need from me in this moment?
It feels like, oh my God, I should know this. Like, maybe there’s an element of self-criticism, like, oh, I should know this. I’m their parent.
Joe: Yeah. You feel, and there’s,[00:21:00] out, there’s a guilt that comes with maybe not knowing it or not, having those answers in the moment. Yeah, and we, I feel as, especially with stuff like guilt as well, a lot of the, the books out there and the advice is to kind of steer away from, from guilt, you know, get away, you know, guilt-free parenting, I think there’s books called as well, guilt-Free, oh, these kind of things.
And it’s the same comes coming back to the connection or coming away. Mm-hmm. . For me, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s leading us away from the connection to ourselves. Guilt is something that, when it shows up, in my work, I always say, great. It shows that you’re, you are, you care, you are, and you are in a, you are in a relationship where a part of you really wants to take responsibility for what happened.
Mm-hmm. , it doesn’t mean it’s true. It doesn’t mean that you by the cause or you don’t have to go with it or make it right or wrong, but it’s gonna be then either side. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm. . So just always Yeah. Have your guilt. Yeah.
Gissele: It’s sort of like, welcome those emotions. Don’t make them wrong. Right.
Joe: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I guess what, how that links into, to what you were saying, is it, it’s the Yeah. Having your emotions, having that experience that that unknown is that guilt and being able to stay with it. Yeah. And there’s like really leaning into it.
Gissele: Yeah. One of the interesting things that I think that, you know, I’m so, blessed to have the children that I do, and also to be able to have the conversations that I do with them.
I remember as a kid when I realized my parents were human. Yeah. I think I, I had my parents in a pedestal and then when I realized, like sometimes when they, when, you know, when they did different things that were so hurtful, you know, like realizing that, oh, these people don’t know what they’re doing.
Yeah. My God. Like, you know, and, and, and really sometimes feeling so hurt. I took the [00:23:00] opportunity to tell my kids kind of early on in the relationship that I didn’t always know what I was doing. It’s that sometimes I wasn’t gonna get it right. And it’s sort of like, forgive me in advance, right? Like, so I, you know, like really talking about doing the best we can and not always getting it right and being able to talk about it and ask for forgiveness and talking about that doesn’t mean that.
You know, I wasn’t confident as a parent. It just meant that I understood that I was a human being first, working through learning on my way to how to become a parent, and that I was going to stumble and make different choices. Yeah. That maybe I was gonna look back and go, maybe not. And so I think that that kind of helped me in the way to have a better relationship with my kids rather than having that.
Why do you think we have that kind of, how was it received? Yar key? Hmm? How
Joe: was it received? Huh?
Gissele: It was actually received very well, in fact that they, my kids kind of joked about like the fact that, you [00:24:00] know, yeah, I know . It’s sort of like, it was sort of like a funny joke. Right. I think that sort of helped when.
like the fact that we were able to come back and say, I’m sorry about that. Like, I think that the, the being able to come back and talk about the fact that like myself or my husband had made a mistake or the willingness to talk about how that felt, was good. Like I, I think it was, I think they still, the kids still held us in a pedestal, some sort.
I think I, I think it might be a natural thing for children to do. but I think once we fell off the pedestal, I think they were like, oh yeah, they kind of told us . Yeah. Yeah. So I think they still had that pedestal thing, but I think when we fell it wasn’t as far to fall
Joe: maybe. Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost like what comes up for me, when you talk, it’s like it gave you, the space to pause in the relationship and just explore what was happening for maybe both of you, and they were old enough to, to do that with you and, and, [00:25:00] and see.
And I imagine that if you couldn’t, weren’t able to do that, then you weren’t not, you are not leading them into that territory of being able to pause themselves.
Gissele: Yeah. Although it can feel challenging at times. Like when I, and I’m interested in, in, you know, what you, what you would tell parents. Like if I, if I cannot regulate myself, I cannot help them regulate.
Yeah. But sometimes, sometimes they have a hard time with me saying, I can’t help you right now. I need to put my own oxygen mask on first. There’s times when I think my children want me to fix it, and I’m like, I can’t fix it for you. I can’t do this. I, if I could, I would’ve done it already. I would’ve been like, fix
Yeah. But I can’t. But sometimes there’s like a little bit of that parent guilt, which is like, oh, I wish I could be there for you. But I know right now that my bucket is empty. Mm-hmm. What would you say to Pam?
Joe: A few things come up for, first of all, it, It makes a [00:26:00] difference developmentally where the, the children are at.
So for my children, four and two, I wouldn’t do that. yeah, fair enough. With, yeah, they’re, they’re just too young. Because until the ages of about of five, at least five, five to seven children can only have one feeling, one emotion, one thought in at a time. which is why ev everything’s, you know, pure and the tantrums and yeah, I believe in Santa Claus and these things, that’s, everything is just one thing at a time.
And then if everything unfolds, like, you know, your, your flower analogy, everything, the potential is realized, then we’re able to mix, emotions and feelings. So, we can have, love for someone and, you know, want to hit them at the same time. And we can have them in the same, but it might not. unfold is a tantrum that our experience has become, are tempered.
So for younger children, if I’m saying, my bucket is my bucket is full, I’m giving them the message that, [00:27:00] the they’re responsible, they’re responsible for my feelings. Oh yeah, for sure. So it’s too, yeah, it’s just, and because they can only have, do one thing at a time, then that’s what they’re gonna do.
And they’re just could have, they’re almost become the parent in the relationship. Yeah, for sure. And everything gets skewed and, so it depends. Development. And even though that is potentially could happen, five or seven, we’re all different. We all have different, so sometimes that, you know, it depends.
That’s why we all know our kids be, you know, moms, they know their kids best, so we’ll all be the ones to know this. So that would be the first thing that comes to mind. And, the second thing is, yeah, it’s showing that we’re, when, when it is, when they’re developmentally right. When you have that sense, it’s, showing the human quality of the, that we are not, yeah.
You know, we can’t just, we can’t do things anymore. You are, it’s [00:28:00] experiencing what, what’s it like for you in that moment is it might be frustration or sadness or, a mixture. And you’re just showing these, the, the, these normal, the normal kind of journey of, of, of the emotions and how they show up in life and they just get to see that in you.
Gissele: The reason why I raised it with the, because here it’s good. I’m not sure the same in Canada, but you get, you hear a lot of, with young children, you know, don’t hit me, you make me sad.
Joe: Or, that makes me an angry. And we’re almost taught in the books to Yeah. Share our emotions with our young children. Mm-hmm. You know, with the aim to teach them the behaviors, the pushing and pulling of behaviors, which is. kind of what we really wanna get to. Yeah. And they’re just developmentally, they just can’t handle it.
And what it does, it just sets them up to be the parent and take responsibility from, and the only way they can do that at that age is shutting [00:29:00] part of themselves down. Mm-hmm. , which, which fills it. Which ironically maybe suits them in our society. And it looks, it might look like everything’s going well and, and, everything but it’s, it’s, it’s not good for
Gissele: development.
Oh, for sure. Thank you so much for raising that. That’s really, important because, developmentally, in terms of where the kids are, you can have those conversations. I can have those conversations cuz my kids are older, right? Yeah. And so my kids are 14 and 12.
the fact that I have older kids, I’m able to say to them, you know, like if they’re struggling, okay, I, I, I just need a moment to regulate myself. , and then I can help you co-regulate. Or I will say, you know, like, you know, what do you need from me? So in, I can have those conversations with them, but when they were little, that’s a totally different thing.
That’s sort of like a, a tap in. Like my husband would have to tap in if I just, if I just didn’t Yeah. But I, I didn’t have that emotional awareness at the time. Yeah. For me it was about giving, giving, [00:30:00] giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. And then I would get frustrated when I would give.when my kids were little.
I didn’t have that awareness that I have now about the need to put my own oxygen mask on first. But I think what you said is really key about how, how little or how old are they when you can actually start to have those conversations, right? Yeah.
Joe: It’s, but what else, another thing that comes up for me is, we’re not meant to parent in this, in this, way.
We’re not meant to be, you know, quite often it’s just one parent in charge. If we’re lucky, we’ve got two. even if we’re together, you know, being in the same place, you know? Yeah. For however many years we’ve been around, we’ve been in tribes, there would’ve been aunts and uncle, you know, and, and just the kids would just be bouncing off.
And so the chances are you wouldn’t have, you know, filled up anyway. Yeah. Or if you would, it [00:31:00] would’ve been a seamless move out and it just, it wouldn’t have had the same EF effect that it does in our, you know, parenting, you know, isolated parenting systems that we have now. It, it just, it’s, it’s kind of a new thing, which is, which has grown with our society.
So I said, you know, you just have to experience, you know, have your, have your emotions for what’s, what’s happening. Just you have to experience it and, yeah. have space for
Gissele: it as well. I think you raised the other key thing too is that like the need for community, right? Like we really are raising our kids in isolation, especially if you’re a single parent.
Yeah. The need for that community, the need to come together to help, us really come together and I am so grateful that you have learned so much about parenting. Remember when we used to have to let our kids cry? That was so [00:32:00] painful. It was, it was very painful for me in particular. I found it. Really, I just couldn’t do it.
Yeah.
Joe: We were told to do this.
Gissele: Yeah, it was, we just, we couldn’t do it. Like, I just couldn’t, couldn’t it, it was so heartbreaking. Like it was heartbreaking for me. I just couldn’t regulate enough for me to allow them to cry. It was grading to me to hear them cry and cry and cry. but that’s the advice that we gave.
Right? And so, but now we’re saying that that advice is outdated and hurtful.
Joe: Wow. Not, not so much here in the uk, I don’t think really. I mean, there is part of us that there is, it’s not the only way to do it, but it’s still very common here. Yeah. Oh yeah.
Gissele: No. So one of the things that we hear like at least now is that that is, is not a very loving thing to do.
That there’s the reassurance needs to, to happen still. Like that re reassurance in terms of. , you need to come back, sooth and then go and come back sooth and do [00:33:00] it that way. but even then it’s, I just don’t think that we’re meant to parent in the same like what you had mentioned, which is when you think about the olden times and not that I was around and the olden times.
Yeah. But when you look at tribes and communities, the babies are with the parents everywhere they go. Yeah. Like have, have we studied if those kids have attachment issues, like, cuz when you see, you see them with their parents constantly. Right. In community. And then when, when you think about the, you know, there’s that model of attachment, there’s that model of attachment that says, you know, if kids are securely attached, they will naturally go and explore.
Like once they have that secure attachment, the home base, yeah. They have a home, a securely home base. Yeah. Then they can, that attachment, if they’re securely attached, they will actually wanna explore. They don’t wanna be next to you. They wanna actually see the world, but they have to have that reassurance that there’s that secure base.
Joe: but a lot of parenting techniques are the, [00:34:00] to, you know, you can be too secure. Let’s say that the attachment can be too secure or there’s an, a worry about that. But, I mean, I studied a lot with, Neufeld, Gordon Neufeld and he would say, just like the plant analogies that you’ve used before, you can a, a plant or ch it can never be too securely attached.
Yeah. It can be too insecurely attached. Yes. But it’s very different.
Gissele: The model I was thinking is circle security. . Yeah. Okay. So it’s, it’s the nurturing, it’s called circle of security. So there’s a nurturing, and the more that there is that secure base, then the kids naturally go and explore, and then they’ll come back to the secure base, and then over time their exploring becomes bigger than that secure base.
Yeah. but growing up I wasn’t taught that because my parents didn’t have a secure base. Right. They grew up with a, you know, some child abuse and neglect and so it, it kinda, it’s amazing how it gets handed down, those kinds of old perspectives about [00:35:00] how we, how we should parent. I, is there anything that we do currently that you think maybe years from now I’ll go like, mm, maybe that’s not the best thing we could be doing?
Joe: Oh, I think most of it, . , I would say. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there’d be a, we’re not squid. I feel like society’s quite open about this. We’re not set up for, children or. family, you know, we’re set up more for the economy,getting a bigger G D P and, and getting people into, the workplace. Mm-hmm.
that’s where our focus is. Yeah. We have things set along that road dotted around like the, you know, that might support these kind of things. But that’s the, the main goal of, of the things we have in the, the, the schools, the systems are to take us to that place. And we’ve bought into it
Gissele: kind of, because we think that’s what [00:36:00] determines success, right?
Yeah. Like IUC success. So it’s one of the things I’m thinking about because, because my kids are older, they’re thinking about graduating high school and what do they do next? Yeah. And there is this real impetus towards, well, they gotta go to university and they have to have good paying jobs and whatever.
And so, . And so I, I see that, that, you know, you know, my children struggle with not knowing what they’re gonna do. And should I know this now? And it’s like, no, live your life, have joy, right? Like live the most in this moment. Do what, what, what brings you, what brings you the greatest pleasure? What I mean is like, for example, like if, if drawing is something that fulfills you, maybe that’s what you wanna do a career in, right?
It’s, it’s, it’s so thinking outside of this conventional, you gotta be a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, right? Yeah. It’s, it’s what makes, what gives, makes your heart sing, brings you joy. And could that be your life path, potentially,
Joe: right? Yeah. And even if it [00:37:00] isn’t on the, you know, the economical path to, you know, we all live in the real world.
It’s something you can have space for in your, in your life. It’s, and pe there’s so many kids that just don’t have any idea of what that is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s where they just, they just dunno what they wanna do. They, and they don’t for a career, for a hobby or they just don’t, they’ve not, they haven’t had space, they haven’t been alleged to that place where they can find that.
Gissele: Well, and I think, you know, from my perspective, I think that would be a great opportunity for schools to do that. Right? Like, I mean, they, they go to career counseling, right? Like, oh, you know, you do a survey. Yeah. Yeah. it seems like they still do the same things. When I was younger, they did a survey and they’re like, you’d be good for social work.
I didn’t end up doing that. I did that. I did something. I didn’t even know what social work was, but
Joe: social worker accounting and I, it, I don’t like it though. . It’s like,
Gissele: yeah, [00:38:00] so, so they, I think they still have the same survey cuz I think my daughter mentioned that she completed it. but. . So rather than really aiming to cultivate what brings you joy and what really is your gift to this world in in right, it’s more like fit this box.
And so, you know, and I don’t mean that as a form of criticism, this we’ve all contributed to this world that we have created. Hmm. It’s just, I think we are kind of redefining what we mean, what it means to be happy, what it means to be joyful, what, what it means to be successful and to be fulfilled. Yeah.
and I think that those changes will reflect also as well in terms of how we parent children. Yeah. Right. And, and the sort of expectations that come along with being a parent. Because I remember my parents had expectations of me and I’m trying hard not to have expectations of my children in a way that is diminishing.[00:39:00]
right? Like that, that, you know, it’s sort of that unconditional love. You’re only lovable if you achieve. You’re only lovable. If you are successful. You’re only lovable. You can, you are still lovable. Even if you decide that, I guess playing on electronics all day is what you’re gonna do.
it might not be a good balance. And so one of the things we talk about with our kids about is having living in a balanced life, right? Yeah. Which is having good exercise, going out, having fun with your peers. You can do some electronics, right? Like that brings you joy and makes you play with people.
But also you have to have other aspects of your life that are in good balance. Yeah. Including, you know, honoring yourself in your environment, which means chores and you know, like taking care of their body, like hygiene,
Joe: for example. And how is it received when you have.
Gissele: To be honest, I, in all of this conversations that I, with my children is stuff I’ve learned along the way from them and from our interactions.
I find. So before, when I was, when I was [00:40:00] younger and, and hadn’t gone really through my self-love, self compassion journey, I had a thing about cleaning cuz my mom was a bit of a clean freak. And so I had a thing about cleaning and I, there was so much, so much resistance to it. I would force them and I would, I didn’t realize I was making them miserable and making myself miserable every weekend when we would clean.
And then one day I just, I had it with myself and I had it with that. I, I didn’t want to have to suffer through another weekend of cleaning. And I didn’t wanna make them suffer because they would complain about how much I was making stuff when they were littler. They were more apt to cleaning. We could, we would make it more fun, but as they grew older and sometimes they just didn’t wanna do their chores, there was a lot of resistance in me and then I, I would put a lot of pressure on them.
And so then one day I just said to myself, I’m done with this. If I really want this to be clean, I’m gonna do it myself. Like I, if that’s really important, I think, why do I want them to do these chores? And I said to myself, okay, I want them to, because I want them to have these skills to be able to [00:41:00] take care of themselves in their environment when they leave elsewhere.
Right. Because when they leave my house, when they leave from not being with me, I’m gonna have to do it right. Or I can hire someone. And
Joe: so, and that’s just to jump in there that Yeah. Mm-hmm. But please continue after the, yeah. Just to check out the idea. And I feel like this in society is that our responsibility to teach these, skill or teach these, and you can, we do, it’s almost if you can teach someone, how to clean, , but you can’t teach them to want to clean them up.
Clean up. Yeah. Yeah. Two very different, but yeah, go on.
Gissele: So what I found was I let go of the resistance of the need for it to happen and then the need for it to happen in a specific way. Mm-hmm. I sat down with my kids and I said, basically, we feel that you doing a chore is your way of saying thank you.
It’s it, we’re all responsible for keeping our environment clean. And from our perspective, it was about skill building. It was about, you know, when you leave this place, you [00:42:00] honor yourself and you honor your environment by keeping your things tidy, keeping your body clean, all of those things. When I changed my approach and said, you know, and then I started to say, you know what?
I’m gonna teach you how to clean the bathroom. So I went through the different steps, which I hadn’t done before, right? Mm-hmm. I, and then I sort of let it go. And if they didn’t do their chores that week, I, I honestly said, okay, do I, is it important for me to clean this? And I would just do it myself? I found once I release the resistance, It became harmonious.
And honestly, my kids started to do it themselves. Out of their own volition, out of their own joy. one of my children will hum and Haw at times. Yeah. But then I just remind them and say, this is how we’re building a skill. This is what I’m teaching you this time. And then the whole thing flips.
It changes. It goes from resistance to, oh, what am I gonna learn? What am I gonna learn that I didn’t know? And they’ll say, oh, I know how to do that. And I say, well, did you do this? And then he’ll go, oh. No, I didn’t. And, and there’s, there’s the [00:43:00] re i, I see the re the, the resistance release. And they’re more open to being able to know, oh, I’m learning a skill.
I’m learning something that I can have on my toolbox rather than it being, I have to do this. I’m your child’s slave . Yeah. Which was always the perspective, right? Like, oh, you know why you just want me to do this so you have somebody. Right? And so once I realized the resistance, like once I realized that I was making everybody miserable and decided to let go of that, the whole process just became harm harmonious from, from my perspective and I think from theirs as well.
I mean, sometimes we squabble over like the dishes and stuff that still, but then at the end, my husband and I will do them, and then we just kind of rather see the space cleaner than, yeah. Yeah. But that, that
Joe: was hard experience. What comes up for me as you, as you share that is the, there’s a kind of, you brought them, into relationship more.
Yeah. With, with that and the values. , our values get passed. They’re passed down more naturally. In that sense, there’s not, whereas when there’s, it’s forced, like you say, and there’s, [00:44:00] it comes with all your emotion and your what, whatever’s going for you. There’s just a very natural no, not gonna do that.
Yeah. Resistance to it. And, we’re just, you’re just really far away from them in that point. But you found a way to come, come to their side or come closer to them. And whenever you’re there, the tea, it is just, the teaching is just effortless, isn’t it? It just, oh, this is easy. Whereas if I’d asked you in, in the resistance, you might have said, how do I do?
You might have, I was the victim,
Gissele: Joe. I was that me how to do this. Yeah. I was like, I’m always doing this. And sometimes I do fall into that victim mode. And then I, what I’ll do is, you know, I take opportunities to say, okay, what do I need in this moment? Okay. I, I really need to. Myself to ask for help to whatever.
And then so I will give myself what I need in this mo in that moment. And then I can’t let go of the resistance. But until I do that, I’m not [00:45:00] open to, to that shift. And so, but this has been through like, you know, learning through making mistakes, which is what I love what you said about, you know, going back to yourself in terms of what feels right for you and your relationship with your kids.
Because all kids are different, right. And so what each of my kids needs from me is different in their own ways and how they communicate with me those needs is very different. Right? Yeah.
Joe: yeah. And brings me back to the, at the point, at the beginning, very often when we ha, when we notice these troubles or things aren’t working just like the schools do, it’s very easy for us to get the problem is in the child.
Yeah. Whereas you were able to stay with yourself. Might have took a bit longer than you wanted to, but you were, you, you stayed there and there was, you know, you noticed something and then there was a shift and everything else just flowed. There’s no, no one, I tell me if I’m wrong, but no one told you what to [00:46:00] do or it just kind of worked.
You knew what to do that in that place, but you wouldn’t have got there without having to go through that or notice what was happening and then there’s some kind of release for you and everything came from there.
Gissele: Yeah. And that’s when I, you know, in, in, in my parenting journey, like it’s really been about trying to understand.
In the beginning it was about trying to understand my kids, right? Like it, and it, it still is of trying to get to know who they really are and to really see them. Cuz I didn’t feel always as seen and, and it’s not purposeful. My parents were doing the best they could, the same way that I am doing the best they can.
We all sort of are, right? Yeah. it’s more about understanding how my beliefs about them, about who they are and my reactions impact the relationship. And so, and so what I’m trying to [00:47:00] say is, is it, it’s really important for me to, to understand where I’m at, at every moment. Like when I’m triggered by my kids, I take that opportunity to say, okay, what’s happening?
What do I need in this moment? What’s happening for me? Whereas before it would be like, oh, this is your fault. You are doing this, or you’re not doing that. Yeah. Because if I can’t regulate myself enough, I can’t engage in conversations and sometimes I can’t. And so
Joe: for me, yeah, for say, can you do it live?
Or sometimes it’s, you know, looking back the day before, .
Gissele: I’ve done it live. Yeah. And this is where I had said to you that, you know, earlier when I said to my kids, I, I, I need to regulate myself right now, I’m dysregulated. Yeah. So I can’t, we can’t have this conversation in this moment because I’m not gonna be receptive and I’m not, but my kids are older, so they, they understand that piece.
Yeah. I, I have these conversations more with my daughter than my son. My daughter’s 14, my son is 12, 13, right? Yeah. So and so I just say, [00:48:00] I just need a moment. And they know that I go and, and meditate and, and I just need a moment to regroup, to really understand what’s happening for me. And then I can come back.
Sometimes it isn’t in the moment and I have to reflect back. And that’s where the apology is so important to be able to come back and go, I’m really sorry for how I acted. Then I can see that this is not, not making up an excuse, but I can see how that was, you know, hurtful or inappropriate or whatever.
. And I usually find my kids are very forgiving. Right. but yeah. Yeah. But sometimes you have to deal with all of those uncomfortable emotions. Yeah. What, what helps you lean in? Like, what do you offer, like what do you suggest to parents in helping them stay in those? Because sometimes it feels really mucky to feel with those feelings of shame and guilt in, in, you know, like those, those kind of inner judgments that we make.
Joe: Well, we, it’s really,how do I say my intention is to facilitate, cultivate a kind of [00:49:00] an, an energy all about compassion. having compassion for those parts when they show up. And,Gordon Neufeld would, I love this quote. He says, EV every child needs an invitation to exist in our presence.
An invitation to exist in our present. And I take that as well to mean, all parts of us. So, all parts. So the, my intention is as these emo you know, the hard ones that we experience, the shame, the guilt, the, whatever it might be, when, when, when it comes up, how can we cultivate a relationship with these, where they have an invitation to exist in our presence, which we can do now as, as adults, hopefully, not all the time, but in the right pla you know, sometimes live, sometimes not.
Can we make space for them at time and really get to know them, befriend them and, and, so it’s like cultivating that energy towards them. It’s in their relationship with them, just like it was in the relationship with yourself, with the [00:50:00] tidying up, which, which helped with, The actual outcome of it.
It’s the, that’s where I, I put the energy, I invite the energy to go mm-hmm. . So, and that starts with me. I’ll be, you know, let’s have a look at that. You know, let’s see that, that, that’s what the session’s all about. To, to, to have those feelings, to be, to lead, to lead people into the vulnerable territory like that mm-hmm.
Yeah. And hopefully from that, they, they can do that themselves as well. And they go and they start to do more. And, and that’s where all our natural wisdom is. Mm-hmm. . But these things have to just move first and we have to get to know them. And many of us, we’ve disconnected from them from an early age.
Yeah. The negative people call, say negative, positive emotions as well, and. The idea behind that, that we kind of get is, okay, we’re gonna move towards the positive one. I’m gonna get away from the negative ones, but [00:51:00] really the invitation is that they’re all, they all have work for us to do.
Yeah. Just like that. Guilt is a, is a, is a great sign that we’re in a, taken responsibility in a relationship within a re it’s great that we have it, not something that you might wanna, you know, experience on a Friday night or you wanna move to, or have, you know, like happiness or Pete or something like that.
But when it’s there, welcome it. .
Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And, and, and I love that you said that because it’s true there, there’s no negative or positive emotions. They’ll ha kind of have a gift that they’re giving us. Yeah. Sort of like a warning signal, right? Like it might be an annoying warning signal, but it’s telling us that something, it’s either we are in an out of alignment, like, you know, our Yeah.
Our leaves or actions may not be in alignment with who we truly are. Yeah.
Joe: and these emotions, they have work to do for, and the, the pr I would say the primary, primary work of the,[00:52:00]
and to, to, to help us stay connected and to, to, yeah. Mm-hmm. to help us form attachments. Yeah. And that’s where their experience in relationship. Yeah.
Gissele: Yeah. And I think in staying attached, in, in, you know, especially connected to ourselves and our own emotions helps us to have. or helps us to be able to bear witness to those difficult emotions that our kids have.
How do you manage your kids’? tantrums, ?
Joe: Well, if I’m on form, it’s a, you know, it’s just like that, that welcoming energy. It’s just, yeah, great. say it’s, it’s A tantrum of frustration. I didn’t get this thing, or this didn’t work out.
This is so, it’s great that they can have that emotion. in my, the, the back of my mind is, , how can I make it safe for them to mm-hmm. experience this and express it? Where am I, you know, maybe I’m at home and it’s just me and, you know, you don’t have [00:53:00] the eyes on you. It’s great. You know, we can, they can hit or scream or do something, and it’s much as maybe we’re, maybe we’re in a supermarket or something like that, and there’s eyes on me as well, and it’s, it’s harder for me to, to do that as well.
Yeah. So, but, and there’s so many different situations, but the, the always in the back of mind is, how can I keep, keep it, keep this, safe for, for this to move through them and mm-hmm. come with them, on that journey, come alongside them as they go through that journey. And what, what you notice when you do, when you do do that, and it works, is with frustration.
It will turn, it turns to sadness and this kind of a, a release and a. It didn’t work. Something didn’t work, and it’s the energy dissipates in it and it goes and it’s just, yeah. But, but when it, if it doesn’t work, if you don’t manage to do it, or you are in a, you are in the wrong place and it’s too much for you [00:54:00] and it, it kind of get arrested and it just doesn’t complete mm-hmm.
and you note what I noticed after, you know, we are just gonna have to go through the same thing, you know, later on, before doing a saver play or it’s gonna move somewhere else. Or maybe it’ll move towards my wife or someone, someone else in there who looks after them. And it would un it’s always, it’ll be kind of in the bank ready to move.
Yeah. For later .
Gissele: And That’s so great that you say that because I’ve observed that. Yeah. I’ve observed that with my kids. Sometimes when they are, like, they, they’re just so pent up. They need to, it’s almost like they need to push off that energy to someone else. Yeah. And then they’re fine. Yeah. And it’s sort of like, You know, and so rather than allowing it to dissipate, sometimes they just have to push it.
And then they’re fine, and then everybody else is in a bad mood. It’s so true. Yeah. I, I’ve definitely experienced
Joe: that.
And I love, you know, emotion. I know e in Latin is too, and motion is moved to mo. It just will always want to [00:55:00] move. And it says the process of coming alongside it and, and help giving it ways to move and, you know, wherever our kids at developmentally, the younger they are, the more, more help they’ll need to come outside.
And then as they get older, it can come out in different ways. More expressive in art or in writing or something. And it’s just always a changing, Process, but every time just trying to get, make the way to their side to be with them on that journey and not to, not to get in the way of it, in a way. Yeah.
But just to create, just to create safety around it. Or the other thing that I would have a, especially for young children, it is play. Mm-hmm. , can I bring it into a, a, a play mode mm-hmm. . And when that works, you know, if there’s a frustration with my daughter, you know, and, sometimes we can just go into this play.
We’re gonna have a play fight or mm-hmm. , we can go and do some, [00:56:00] do like, have a attacking each, you know, called each other poo poo heads and this kind of stuff. And it’s, it’s pla and it just, the energy just goes that way. Mm-hmm. . And it’s, it’s another safe way for it to move. .
Gissele: So you transform it basically.
Yeah. So rather than it moving and going in Yeah. You know, setting off a, a firecracker of, of upsetness . Yeah. It’s more around how can we shift it? We transform the, the, that
Joe: energy. Well, not, I mean, I don’t do it or we, it just, oh yeah. I’m just there when it happens. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s how I, I just, and, if I’ve created the environment, it will just happen naturally, you know?
Yeah. Just like it does, but, and if I haven’t, that one’s safe for later or it will, it will be displaced or, but hopefully what I don’t want it is for it to be pushed down or like repressed. Yeah.
Gissele: Yeah. And I think that’s, so when we repress those emotions, that’s where difficulties start to come. Right.
Whether it be like relationship [00:57:00] difficulties or Yeah. Or disorders. yeah. The, I was wondering is are, are both your kids the same gender? No. Oh, okay. My daughter’s. Have you found, it, it differences in terms of what is vocalized are acceptable emotions for children?
Joe: not in them so far, A bit too young for me to, about ge more generally with other children.
Yeah. There’s definitely,don’t be sad, is more, a bit more for boys than for, you know, these kind of things. And there’s, there are little, little things like that. And my wife will say to me, you know, she’ll notice that in me when I’m dealing with my son and my daughter, that I have a little bit, I have more, space for her emotions than, than maybe his mm-hmm.
I can’t see it. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Yeah. But these things can be very, you know, they’re, they are unconscious, so it’s just some something to. It stays with me to look out, but there’ll, there’ll [00:58:00] always be things we, we won’t be able to see in ourselves.
Gissele: Yeah. I think this is where it’s helpful, like to have a loved one.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a partner, like you mentioned. Right. Yeah. Mirror back to us, those, those areas of growth for us. Right. Because like you said, we, we might not notice. Yeah. I remember my son when he was really, really little. he was such a loving and, and affectionate person. Just always loving and affectionate, always wanting to hug people.
And in my culture in Peru, like we hug and kiss people all the time. . Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, you know, but it was really, it was interesting to see the dynamics as he got older, how that was regarded by other people in terms of what boys should be doing and in terms like more acceptable in girls, not as acceptable for kids, for boys to show that kind of level of, you know, yeah.
Desire for hugs and love and, and that affection. And so it was interesting for me to see. because I, I guess I hadn’t expected it. Right? And so it was like, [00:59:00] oh, now the conversations have to be different. It have to be about like people’s, which is, you know, it’s fair, like people’s spaces and respect of like the boundaries and our culture versus other people’s cultures.
but it was interesting how, as the kids, my kids grow up, the, the conversations for boys and girls around what are the acceptable emotions, anger is acceptable for men, anger not so acceptable for women. Yeah. Sadness, not so acceptable for men, women okay. To be sad. So it’s, it’s weird how we limit that, that the toolbox.
But the kids need all of those tools Yeah. To be able to demonstrate. And so it’s interesting how we’ve, we’ve created a society that does that, right?
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, and yeah, we need all of them. And it’s weird and it is different. We, we have a similar thing in our, cuz my wife’s from Columbia.
Gissele: Oh, nice.
Joe: you know exactly what you were saying and we’re, I’m, you know, English we’re very
Gissele: No touch,
Joe: you know. Yeah. And that’s so it’s we’ll [01:00:00] find that, I’m sure we’ll find that as, as, as they get older as well. Cuz they’re being raised in England.
Gissele: Yeah.
Joe: we’re coming to the end of the podcast. I just want to give you a moment to tell people where they can find you, where they can come work with you. So tell us about your websites. Anything that you got working on, please share it.
Gissele: Yeah,
Joe: so my website is, www.joeatkinson.co.uk. I’m a therapist. obviously work with a lot of parents, but not necessarily, you don’t have to be a parent to work with me. I offer some mentoring for children as well, but, I, I work more with adults, now than I, than I do with children.
And, we’ve just started,podcast ourselves called The Caring Instinct. So come and check that out. the idea is that, we’ll, once it builds up, we’ll, we’ll set up a, a parent support group where, which we’ll meet once a month, and, and,yeah, the idea is for to, for parents to reconnect, to themselves and, you know, step away from experts and specialists, and we want to kind of create that [01:01:00] environment there to, to rediscover parenting in that way.
Oh, beautiful. And, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s based on, the work with Gordon Neufeld at the Neufeld Institute. Please check him out and Yeah,
Gissele: no, it’s so great.
Joe: I’ll check out.
Gissele: Thank you so, so much, Joe, for coming to talk to us.
Joe: Thank you
Gissele: about your experiences and your knowledge and your wisdom. and, please check us out again on another episode of The Loving and Compassion Podcast with Gissele .