TRANSCRIPT
Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support the podcast, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion.
Gissele: Today, we’re talking about kindness, and we have Cindy Rowe with us, who is a speaker, trainer, and kindness ambassador dedicated to transforming workplace culture through the power of kindness and emotional intelligence. As the founder and CEO of Cindy Rowe LLC and the Be Kind Crew, she helps organizations strengthen employee engagement, resiliency, and trust by creating cultures rooted in compassion and connection.
Gissele: Cindy draws from more than 15 years of leadership experience across corporate and entrepreneurial sectors to bridging gap between organizational performance and human wellbeing. She’s also the survival of a traumatic brain injury and [00:01:00] personal loss. Cindy uses her lived experience to illustrate the measurable impact of kindness on wellbeing, retention, and organizational success.
Gissele: She’s also the host of the Kindness Advantage Podcast. Please join me in welcoming Cindy. Hi, Cindy.
Cindy: Hi. Thank you so much for having me
Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so excited to chat with you. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got started in this work.
Cindy: Yeah. So it was about 12 years ago, and like most people, we have, a hard season of life and I was in a very, very dark spot. This moment in time seemed to drag on and on, and couldn’t figure out how to get out of this darkness. And I was seeing a therapist, I was doing all the things and getting out in nature and trying to meditate.
Cindy: Still haven’t figured that one out yet. But it wasn’t until I reached out to a friend and just [00:02:00] shared with him, I was like, my life sucks and I really don’t know what to do about it.” What people didn’t see, on the outside I was very happy-go-lucky, put on a smiley face, but they didn’t see what was happening behind closed doors.
Cindy: And, my marriage was crumbling and I was working in a very toxic work environment and just, seemed to compound every day. And when I vented to the friend, he suggested I do an act of kindness. And I don’t know about you, but if you ever had a bad day, like that’s not one thing you think about. And I was pretty bitter and I was like, “Why would I do an act of kindness? That seems really stupid.” And he very insistent and he said, when you do something kind for somebody else, it actually takes away from you focusing on your problems.” And I let that sit with me for a little bit. I was very skeptical and I was like, I’ve tried everything, so I might as well give this a try.” [00:03:00] And I did. And it was about three acts of kindness that it took me to feel a slight shift. I started to feel happy, which I hadn’t in a while, I thought, “There’s something to this.” And I was approaching my 40th birthday and I thought, it be great to celebrate such a milestone birthday by doing an act of kindness every day for my birthday month?”
Cindy: And so I set out to do an act of kindness every day for my 40th birthday, and it completely transformed my life. and i- in the moment I started just to feel better and I wasn’t dwelling on all the negative things, and I started to be more positive. But what it, that activity did, it built this core value in me kindness that I didn’t have before, and it really helped me for more troubles to come as you mentioned in the [00:04:00] bio, but that I didn’t know it was happening.
Cindy: But I started to realize the importance of these small acts of kindness, and they were seriously very small, like writing encouraging notes on sticky notes and them when I did my errands, or buying a scratch-off lottery ticket and taping it to a gas pump, buying flowers and dropping them off at the nursing home, filling the carts at Aldi with quarters.
Cindy: Just things that I could do as I was living my life. And, yeah, I went from being that bitter, dark person to, a very positive, happy person within 31 days. And yeah, it– that’s the, the whole moment it started, and it has snowballed ever since, I should say.
Gissele: Oh, that’s amazing. That’s so funny. As you were talking, I was remembering a near-death experience story that I had heard, and the woman was… You know how you do the… from their perspective, they do that life review, and one of the things that she had [00:05:00] experienced was that she was shown a small act of kindness she had done for someone else, and she was like, “Out of all the things I’ve done in my life, why would you show me this?”
Gissele: And then they show her the fast-forward, and that small act of kindness had such a ripple effect on other people that the person that she had helped was now helping other people, and that had a huge ripple. And so we think the- these acts of kindness are so small and not extraordinary at all.
Gissele: We think we have to be the Dalai Lama, but the truth of the matter is all of these things have such a ripple effect, right? Which is extraordinary.
Cindy: Yeah. And I’ve, since then I’ve done a lot of researching on kindness, and I have found so many important things that just make those simple kind acts, like you said, the, the ripple effect. one study that shows that one kind act actually has the potential to reach 125 people in just one day.
Gissele: Wow!
Cindy: you don’t realize that when you’re holding open the door for somebody or saying hello and [00:06:00] smiling. you don’t understand the true impact that it actually has. And when you have that understanding, it literally is life-changing for everybody involved.
Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And I also wanna mention that the reverse also has th- the, a ripple effect, right? When we express anger to someone else, and then that anger kind of passes, passes on. It’s almost like I don’t know. It’s like a, a fuse that kinda gets lit. And so when we have a negative experience with someone, that kinda has a ripple effect too.
Gissele: So think about the choices that we’re making every day and the impact of those choices, which I think are really critical. I wanted to ask you, ’cause you said that the kindness process prepared you for the next stage of your experience. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Cindy: Yeah. So built that core foundation of kindness and I wouldn’t say that I was unkind prior to that. I just don’t think it was really top of mind, a, a priority of mine. And so [00:07:00] having create that 31 days of birthday kindness that core value within me, I started to live differently and show up for people differently. my problems didn’t go away after those 31 days. They were still there, and I just handled them a little bit differently. But the, I think the cool part about kindness is it takes action, right? And you can see something, but if you don’t act upon it, it stays the same, right?
Cindy: So I started to notice more opportunities to do kind things for people and for myself. And as I was going through the whole process, I was in a terrible marriage and we ended up, And I was at a, a job I hated. I ended up leaving that job starting my own business, which I still operate today. And then shortly thereafter, I for divorce, or we filed for divorce. It was a [00:08:00] mutual thing. And I had started to go down that slippery slope again, right? And started to feel the heaviness of life, and I remembered the 31 days that I did, and I’m like, ” I can’t do that every month.”
Cindy: Let’s be realistic.
Cindy: And, but what can I do to keep flexing that kindness muscle, because that’s really what it is, and just keep it top of mind. And so I decided that every Monday I was going to do a Make a Difference Monday. That’s what I call it. And I was gonna be very intentional with my kindness on Mondays, that would be a way that I could continue this newfound superpower of mine in a more reasonable way, right?
Cindy: And I say that because I think I did kind things every day, but when you focus and try to be very intentional with kindness, it is different. And so every Monday I was very [00:09:00] focused on I’m gonna do something somebody, in an intentional way, and that has really helped me continue the whole journey of this kind lifestyle, I guess I would say. And As I continued down my story, my path, I didn’t realize what was gonna happen to me. We don’t know what the future ever brings us. And think in that moment, 12 years ago, life was preparing me for what was to come. And, we can always reflect back, right?
Gissele: Yeah
Cindy: the beauty part of life is the reflection of where you were and how far you’ve come. there was a reason I called that one person and vented to him. We were not close friends. We were we were in the same network marketing company, and we had a lot of common interests. He lived in C- Colorado, I lived in Illinois. So we had never– I’ve never met him in person.[00:10:00]
Gissele: Oh, wow
Cindy: yeah, I’ve never met him in person, but I felt like he would understand where I was coming from. And for him to give me that advice and then for me to take it, and then take it one step further and do the whole birthday… But he didn’t tell me to do 31 days of kindness. He just told me to do an act of kindness, right? That the pebble that started to roll. And shortly after I got divorced, I was in a in a meeting for one of my business clients, and I was headed to another business client meeting, and I was in a terrible car accident.
Cindy: And this woman pulled out in front of me, T-boned me, or I T-boned her going 55, 60 miles an hour, the cop said. And at the scene of the accident They were like you probably should go to the emergency room,” whatever. I didn’t have any physical thing wrong with me. And my ex-husband was a police officer, and I always know he’s like, ” [00:11:00] Always go to the hospital.
Cindy: Always go to the hospital.” So to the hospital. Through the ER, they’re like, “You’re fine. You’re probably gonna have a headache but you’re lucky to be walking out of here.” Come to find out I was not fine. It was a few days later. I couldn’t remember words. I couldn’t sleep. I had horrible headaches,
Gissele: Oh, wow
Cindy: all these things.
Cindy: And Called my primary doctor, and she’s “It sounds like you have a concussion. Just take it easy let me know if things get worse.” They got worse. I couldn’t walk straight. I literally would look at this and have no idea what it was called. I’m like, “You
Gissele: Yeah. Oh my gosh, that must have been so frightening
Cindy: Yeah, it wasn’t like brain fog.
Cindy: It was like I literally could not remember words.
Gissele: Yeah
Cindy: And I end up going to a neurologist and being diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury six weeks after my car accident. This story is relevant because at that time I was creating my [00:12:00] business. I was a marketing consultant, and I had only had a handful of clients, my neurologist was like, “Every brain injury is different. We don’t know how long it’s gonna take for you to recover, But the one thing is you cannot work on the computer for long periods of time, like a half hour a day.” And I was like, “You gotta be kidding me.”
Gissele: Jesus, you just left it. Yeah.
Cindy: I like, I don’t
Gissele: you just left the business, you’re starting a new business. Yeah, for sure. It must be terrifying.
Cindy: a husband to help support me through this, and I was like, “Okay, this is great.” So I went back to my clients. They all knew I was in this car accident, but they didn’t know the new diagnosis, and I shared it with them, and I said… They were all on yearly contracts with me to pay me monthly, a monthly retainer to do their social media marketing. And I was like, “I don’t know how long I’m gonna be down. I will try my hardest, but here’s your opportunity to get out of the contract ’cause I wouldn’t feel right to take your money.” Not one of [00:13:00] them left me. They all ” We just wanna see you recover.” I worked with small business owners, like people that can’t afford a marketing person,
Cindy: So were on my side.
Cindy: They had my back. They were showing kindness to
Gissele: Yeah
Cindy: And it was a big light bulb moment for me that I had built my company with a core value of kindness as well, and now they were repaying it back to me. And that was such a, a cool moment. And of course, remained my, my clients up until the very end.
Cindy: I ended up closing my marketing company at the end of last year. But I realized at that moment that there was more power to this kindness thing than I ever realized. The other part about this whole kindness thing was during my recovery And nobody ever shared with me about how to [00:14:00] take show self-kindness or do self-care.
Cindy: I never had anybody talk to me about that. I’m a high achiever, high performer, go-getter. I go. And I had to, right? As a entrepreneur with
Gissele: Damn
Cindy: else helping me, I had to. But when this car accident happened, my life stopped and I couldn’t. And I was all focused on my recovery. I had to go to brain therapy, go to chiropractor appointments ’cause I had severe whiplash.
Cindy: I was a mess. You couldn’t tell it from the outside. It was all internal stuff. And I knew that the way I could be the best patient was to listen to my body. And that’s hard for somebody that is always Trying to achieve the next big thing. So I– the biggest lessons I learned from my car accident was patience and grace for myself, and that took a lot of self-kindness. [00:15:00] That took me to, to understand that if at one o’clock in the afternoon I was tired, that I lay down and rest, that by doing that, I wasn’t lazy and I was simply recovering. And there was months where I had to take an afternoon nap, and I’m not talking 15, 20 minutes.
Gissele: Yeah.
Cindy: Was like a two-hour nap order for me to function when my kids got home from school so that I could prepare dinner and then go along with our evening, and I was already always in bed by eight o’clock anyway.
Cindy: But that element of self-kindness came because of my car accident, and that, that was something, again, that I was not aware of or prepared for. It just happened, and I think it wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t do that 31-day activity, 12 years ago. So as I’m recovering, I also learn about boundaries, and that [00:16:00] was another for self-kindness is boundaries. Boundaries for my clients, boundaries for, my friends, boundaries for my cell phone.
Gissele: And your children, yeah
Cindy: of those boundaries today. my, cell phone goes on do not disturb and grayscale at 8:30 PM, and it might seem silly to some people, but for me, that allows my brain to settle before I have to lay down. And I– it’s a choice. I get to decide if I wanna respond to texts and I’m on some group texts with some women, and they like to get chatty about, bit before nine o’clock every night. But I get to choose, do I wanna participate in that tonight or not? And the grayscale part helps me to stop scrolling social media at night because I don’t need to.
Cindy: And I put in other boundaries as well, but again, I wouldn’t have done those things had I not had that core value of kindness and knew that those boundaries were [00:17:00] really important to my recovery and for my wellbeing, as well as, the rest to not feel like I was being lazy because I needed a rest.
Cindy: And today, my, my car accident was the end of 2018. My first day that I worked eight hours straight in January or February of ’23, so that was a really long time. Today, I still take what I call my recharges, probably the closest thing to meditation as I can get. But I will lay on the couch with my hands across my chest and set a timer for 25 minutes, and I fall asleep, great.
Cindy: If not– But I do that almost on a daily basis, and I have zero guilt about it because refuels me. It recharges me, and it’s allows me to show up present for everybody in my life for the remainder of the day. That was just one thing that it helped me get through. the [00:18:00] other one that you mentioned a personal loss, and that happened recently. I was able to find love again and married pretty amazing man. We were married for 17 months when he died suddenly at the end of ’23, and it was Life-altering. Any loss is. If anybody has ever experienced a loss, whether it’s a, a parent or a family member, a child or or even a best friend, like it’s, it is life-altering. he was just 50 years old. We had our whole lives ahead of us that we were hoping to live together. but, God, the universe, whatever you wanna think, had a different plan and, it was hard to not sit in that grief all the time. But I truly believe it was and self-kindness that helped me get through the grief when I needed it the [00:19:00] most, and allow myself to feel sad and, grieve not only the person I lost, but the person I used to be that I’m no longer.
Cindy: That’s probably one of the harder things that people don’t realize is that you’re never the same you lose your spouse. Even though we were only together for four years and one day, there was a very incredible bond. I was a changed person, but kindness got me through it. The other thing I wanna share too is he was one of my biggest cheerleaders and supporters of my speaking career, and was so proud of my messaging and that I was willing to step out and do something that I had a passion for that maybe wasn’t seen by others as a, a true way of living, and he always cheered me on. When he was in the hospital, I kept getting these [00:20:00] speaking engagements. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I got another one. I got another one.” And he was heavily sedated, so he didn’t– I don’t think he connected the dots or whatever. It’s not really relevant, but he passed on December 8, I had my– at that time, my biggest paid speaking engagement mid-January. I was like, “Okay, know how I’m gonna do this,” ’cause at that point I was still a, a mess. So I let them know, the event planner know that, what had happened, I was still committed to go and be there, but I just felt like they should know that my life has changed dramatically. And I showed up and I was prepared, but I feel like… he was definitely there with me, and I don’t know how many of you listening in signs but I was like, “I just ha- I just wanna get through this, and once I get to the car, I can cry. Get me through this.” And, When I was [00:21:00] doing the presentation, Scott, he was a, a jokester. We had tested the AV, everything worked beautifully until I went to go push the, the clicker and the screen and the projector like shut off, and then it turned back on.
Cindy: I was like, “Okay.” And then I s- I was speaking, and then I went to go advance it, and it did it again. And I just looked up and I’m like, “Okay, thank you. I know you’re here,” type of thing. Got through it, and the woman that had hired me, she came up, she’s like, “Did you see he came? He s- he showed up for you.”
Cindy: I was like, “Yeah.” I didn’t wanna cry, i, I share that story because if he wasn’t such a big cheerleader and supporter of my work, I think I would’ve passed on that. I think I would’ve not shown up and, or just tell him I couldn’t do it. But because he was such a big supporter of me, I like, I had to do it for [00:22:00] him, and that helped me get out of the darkness that time really focus on something else.
Cindy: Again, kindness, focusing on something good, showing up, doing what I needed to do. Since he passed away, my speaking business has exploded. I can’t even explain it. And I speak about kindness. I speak about kindness in the workplace. I speak about self-kindness and work-life balance and so that is my core message.
Cindy: But if I didn’t do that 31-day activity I believe I would still be sitting on the couch right now grieving my losses. I truly believe that, and has helped me get through some of the darkest times. When I feel sad, I go do a kind act. When I feel mad, off, I go do a kind act. When I miss Scott, go do a kind act.
Cindy: It’s like is my backup plan [00:23:00] for everything, and it makes me feel good, know I do good, and I know I’m improving somebody else’s life, if it’s for a moment, and I’ll never s- see it, I won’t see that ripple effect, but I know I’ve shared a lot, but that I didn’t know what was coming for me in the future. But I believe there was a divine reason why called that person. They shared that idea of doing a kind act with me, and then I took it one step further, because had I not done that, I don’t think I would be here today. I wouldn’t be your guest. I would be… Who knows? Maybe I wouldn’t even on this earth, I just don’t know. But I know I’m here for good, and I’m here for a purpose and an impact, and kindness is my message. It has completely transformed and saved me
Gissele: Thank you so much, Cindy, for sharing that story. And I know it must have been really challenging. But I wanted to point out some key things that you had mentioned, which is we think that [00:24:00] if we do good, then only good things are gonna happen to us. And so I think that’s a really important message to understand that it’s not about avoiding things that happen in our lives, whether it be loss or grief or whatever.
Gissele: It’s about riding the wave, right? Not allowing it to sink us. And I think what you demonstrate to us is there are ways that by showing love and kindness and compassion for others, that we can get that back, and we can also find or tap into that, strength and love and support that we’re giving out.
Gissele: From my perspective, we’re all interconnected it obviously comes back to us both positive and negative, right? And so I think that’s really important. I wanted to talk about or ask you about how did you handle the moments where the fear arose? Like you I’m a doer, right?
Gissele: And I’ve been in the situations where, when you’re switching careers, where you’re not really necessarily knowing how it’s gonna pan out, and you having [00:25:00] a traumatic brain injury right after and having to, at times, give yourself what you needed in that moment, which is the ultimate act of self-love.
Gissele: How did you address it when the fear came and said, “No, you gotta move. This business is not gonna succeed if you’re not constantly hustling,” and so on?
Cindy: Oh man, that’s– It shows up every day, right?
Cindy: I feel like The fear is always there. But Knowing that if I don’t take that rest, I won’t be the best version of me. And I think understanding that I’m on– especially as an entrepreneur it’s so hard to not compare yourself to somebody else’s journey. so you always feel like you’re 15 steps behind and that you’re never gonna catch up. And I think since losing Scott, my frame of mind has completely changed. I try to live more now for the present than [00:26:00] about what’s gonna happen five years from now. And as an entrepreneur, that’s huge shift in your brain because you’re always trying to about, “Where am I
Gissele: Yeah, what’s my
Cindy: And yeah. And I just, I can’t let the fear control me anymore. Don’t know about five years ago when I was dealing with the part of brain injury and trying to move forward. That helped me t- learn in the moment things because all I had. Unfortunately with my brain injury, I’m missing periods of time and that, that really sucks.
Cindy: It sucks too with my children when they share stories with me and I’m like Okay. don’t remember. and that’s– it sucks, but I think fear’s always gonna be there. It’s important that you don’t let it control you. You focus on or try to remain present on what you need right now. [00:27:00] And okay if you have to take a breather. It’s okay if you have to take a rest. It’s okay if, like– There’s no need to panic when you are doing the best you can and living your best version of your life and giving to yourself and giving to others.
Cindy: I don’t know. I don’t even know if I’m answering the question right. But since losing Scott, my perception of a lot of things have completely shifted. I don’t let it control me anymore. There’s– It still shows up every day, it’s okay, what do I need to do for me right now? do I need to do for those in my immediate circle so they know that I’m there, I’m a good friend, I’m a good support?
Cindy: And what do I need to do today to be the best Cindy Rowe for my company and not stress about what might happen in three years from now? I can’t, like– And I was just sharing this with a friend yesterday about [00:28:00] October. October is a very busy month for speakers, and I’m not busy. I think I have two speaking engagements. And they’re like what are you doing about it?” I’m like I’m not.” I– It will come if it is. If not, it’s okay. I’m still gonna be okay. That wouldn’t have happened three years ago before Scott died. I would’ve been like, “I gotta do all this stuff. I…” It’s almost trust, more trust in yourself too, I think, and that gets easier as you get older. but when you have a great loss, I think your mindset changes a lot. What you’ll let ruin your day, what you’ll let control your being, I think
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You answered my question. It was really great. And it’s interesting we allow things like comparison when people’s experiences, like especially on social media, are so curated, right? You only get a snippet. You don’t get to see all of the sleepless nights.
Gissele: You don’t get to see all the push through. Periodically you get people that say, “I’m a 15-year overnight success,” right? I- and tell you [00:29:00] about all the things that they had to go through. But most people are painting a curated picture. And so I love and appreciate that you are living in the flow, right?
Gissele: One of the beautiful things about kindness that I have seen is that it’s almost signaling the universe that you have more than enough to give. It’s almost like this signal which is okay… ‘Cause when you’re in survival, you are definitely very self-focused. They’re l- you’re like, “How am I gonna survive?
Gissele: How am I gonna live? If me.” But when you took it, take it out, it’s almost like you is done, right? You is taken care of. I can now focus my energy and attention on helping others. And so you start to care more for others. And it is a signal of enoughness, right? And the universe is “You’re right.
Gissele: You have more than enough to give to yourself and others. Bing.” So I think that’s where you feel like you are right now. You’re in the point where you’re like, it’ll come, it’ll flow, and as long as you have that, maintain that feeling of I’m okay then things do flow. I’ve been on the other side [00:30:00] of that too where I had noticed that the universe was giving me amazing things, like a contract out of nowhere, this amazing teaching opportunity, and my mind was like, “Not enough.
Gissele: Not enough. Not enough. I need more. I need more. I need more.” And then I got to a point where I wasn’t getting anything, and it was like, “Oh, shoot, that was more than enough. Would be grateful for a dollar at this point,” right? And so you start to realize how you, with your thinking, are attracting that sort of lack.
Gissele: And so I think it’s a great strategy and a great way of actually, living in the world.
Cindy: I love that, that you said flow. That’s gonna be– I’m gonna write that down. And then the flow.
Gissele: Yeah, I wanted to talk about kindness in the workplace because, I know some people are like what does that look like? Does that mean that I just allow people to act crappy and bully and not do their work?” And so we have all these misconceptions about kindness in the workplace.
Gissele: Can you share a little bit about what it means?
Cindy: Yeah. [00:31:00] So the biggest misconception that I think people have, and when I speak with organizations, I start off this way. There’s a difference between being nice and being kind, and there’s a big difference of that within the workplace. So when we say a kind workplace, a kind culture, being kind at work, thoughts go directly to niceness.
Cindy: Niceness is pushover, saying yes to everything, not like always sugarcoating things, avoiding criticism. Kindness is having those tough conversations. Kindness is making sure you give grace, having that positive intent, like people aren’t coming at you, trying to make your life miserable.
Cindy: Like having that positive intent and doing things in such a way that people improve and grow. That’s not being soft or weak. It actually takes strength and courage to be kind. And I have people like [00:32:00] think about visually, was the last hard thing you experienced at work? conversation. Maybe somebody lied to you, maybe somebody sent you an email in all caps, right? It’s how you respond to that, how you react is really telling on how much kindness you have within. And to build a kind culture or to be a kind leader, you have to practice kindness yourself. It’s not something that can just be there. when you approach a tough situation, which everybody, wherever they work, whether they work for themselves or they work for an employer, you have challenging situations every day, multiple times a day. When you approach that with kindness, empathy, respect You will have a better outcome than if you just react to however you’re feeling. It’s our natural human instinct to react in what we’re given. So if [00:33:00] somebody’s yelling at you, pointing at you, calling you names, spitting in your face or whatever, in all caps, you’re just like, “Arms up let’s fight,”
Gissele: Defense
Cindy: you get defensive.
Cindy: But if you just take a breath and you’re like, “Okay, something else is up with this person.
Cindy: It has nothing to do with me. Let’s figure this out together.” Up with that empathy, showing up with that kindness, showing up with that respect, and just finding out what the root cause is you’re gonna get a much different end result when you do that. And I share ideas of what kindness might look like at work, and it’s not bringing the donuts and coffee, although everybody loves that, right?
Gissele: yeah. Pizza day
Cindy: It’s like recognizing when somebody does something well the moment, not just in their annual review, right? And I share, like I, I had this sticky note idea, right? I do sticky notes all the time. Everyone– I travel a lot, [00:34:00] so I just write inspirational notes on sticky notes, and I slap them in bathrooms and mirrors anywhere I go. If you are flying and you open up the menu, you might find one of my sticky notes you know, just to brighten up your day. I shared that idea. was a couple years ago. I shared this idea wouldn’t it be great if you just wrote down on sticky notes what you witnessed in your team in a day or in a week, and you shared it with them in the moment? And “Thank you so much for showing up on time at the meeting. I love how you always bring the great energy to everything you do. Thanks for pitching in, when the, we were all in a time crunch,” or “I appreciate you answering the phone, when I couldn’t get to it.” Stuff like that.
Cindy: Little things. Those little things. So I shared this at a conference, and a woman just recently reached out to me and said, “I took your idea of the sticky note.” And she said, “My team of six was had very low morale, like everybody [00:35:00] hated coming to work, and I decided I was just going to notice things and appreciate them a sticky note.” She’s like, “It didn’t cost any money, and so I could do it,” right? And so she did it, and at first the, the employees were like– or her team started rolling their eyes, thought it was really stupid. Then they started keeping them, and she’s like, “Okay.” So she kept doing it. Then they started doing it for each other.
Cindy: And she said, “My team of six, my small team of six, changed over a period of time.” This wasn’t overnight it was over a period of time. She had another team leader come to her and say, “What are you doing? And how much money did you get for this? Because your team having fun. They enjoy work.”
Cindy: And she’s “It was a sticky note.” And the, the other person was like, “You gotta be kidding me, right? It was so easy as that.” So recognizing, showing recognition, appreciation know, showing respect, and that seems really common [00:36:00] sense. But again, when you’re overstressed, overworked, you’ve got 15,000 things happening, you don’t think about that.
Cindy: Just tell somebody “This needs to be done now,” instead of, “Hey, I know we’re all super busy but this needs to be a priority. you help out with this?” Like just shaping it a little bit differently, up with candor, asking for feedback. The other thing that I share a lot, especially with political climate that we have here in the US is valuing the views of others, even if they’re not like your own. That’s kindness at work. And this goes two different ways. You can believe that, and I can believe this, and we can still work together. It doesn’t have to change how we come together and collaborate at work. The other idea to this valuing the views of others at work is that we work in very diverse workplaces. We have old, young, different cultures even different, sexual [00:37:00] needs, I don’t even know how to frame that. But if you’re all sitting at the table a meeting asking people for their ideas and opinions about something, and let them share, that doesn’t mean you have to utilize them. But if you have a new employee that’s 20 years old, an older employee that’s 62, you’ve got, You know, somebody from, a different country, somebody that grew up in a different religion. You have all these different backgrounds. Somebody that is now in HR that used to be in finance, like, and you get to hear their ideas. You’ll never know what kind of cool things will come up. And the beauty about that, being able to openly share, is now they feel like they’re valued you listen to them. don’t need to even s- you don’t even need to use the idea, but for the fact that they get to share, kindness at work.
Cindy: So it is a little bit [00:38:00] broader in a sense than what most people think about when they hear kindness at work. It’s having those tough conversations when somebody is not working to the best of their abilities or they’re falling short in their duties. It’s like, have this conversation. Do you need more training?
Cindy: Do you need less work so you can figure this out? do you need more time?” And that takes a very strong leader to do that. And these are not soft skills. These are, that really impact performance, retention, psychological safety. The research shows that this is a no-brainer for success for organizations, and that’s why I’m super passionate about it, because it really just, it starts here. You don’t need a huge budget. It’s just you’ve gotta be mindful, and you’ve gotta decide that you wanna lead in a kinder way. And when you do, impact, that ripple effect, it’s huge. Huge for [00:39:00] organizations.
Gissele: I just wanna acknowledge something that you said that, I love the way you speak. You’re so gentle in, something that you said is so critical, which is people just wanna be seen And it’s so important. Don’t we all just wanna be seen? Weren’t we all just struggling to be seen by our parents, by our family members,
Gissele: And so seeing someone, just the act of observing and being and acknowledging their presence goes so, so far. It’s so important. And so it has that impact of oh, somebody sees me. Somebody sees the little things that I’ve been doing and acknowledges me. It has an extraordinary impact. It’s something that I had done myself with my own team when I was in the workplace, and it’s amazing how much people give you 110% just by, by being acknowledged that they’re worthy of something.
Gissele: The belief that everybody wants to do a good job it’s really critical. The other piece that is a little bit more challenging for people is the idea of having challenging conversations. SoI [00:40:00] used to be a director at a children’s aid society. I was in quality assurance and managed large and small teams for over 20 years.
Gissele: And one of the things I noticed is people don’t like to have difficult conversations, and they really struggle because we have not been trained how to hold the difficult feelings that come up. We have been taught to suppress the difficult feelings to move on from them, to not allow them to be.
Gissele: But until you can hold those difficult feelings for yourself, until you can show them kindness, and be okay and allow yourself to release, you won’t be able to do that for someone else. and so when I teach my students because I had noticed sort of a correlation between that and the school system, as diverse as school systems are, some school systems really value the there’s one right answer.
Gissele: And so kids learn there is one right answer, and therefore a diversity of answers aren’t welcome. There has to be a right answer. So some of [00:41:00] my students that I teach at the university, they come in expecting a right answer. They’re like, “What’s the right answer?” And so I’m like, “There’s no right answer,” and it makes them so uncomfortable.
Gissele: So one of the exercise I have them do is actually they have to tell me what they feel strongly about. Let’s say they’re like for, like pro-rights. And so they’ve gotta go to the other side and actually research the other side, the other perspective. And I do it the research, not interview or conversation, because that could be triggering for them, and so I walk them through the process.
Gissele: But I get them to research the other side to understand their perspective ’cause I s- I’m teaching them research, so you’ve gotta be able to, as a researcher, see and understand what their arguments are. And it’s amazing how some students they can’t the, the dial can’t move, and I’m like, “Okay, this is the most they can give.”
Gissele: But it is a way to get them to practice listening to other views without fearing that they’re going to be [00:42:00] commandeered, that their own views are gonna be changed, ’cause that’s their fear. The fundamentally is “Will my views be altered? Am I now gonna be, thinking this way, and what does that mean?”
Gissele: And, they don’t like the uncertainty. And so I get them to view the other perspective, and it’s been re- really interesting, a really interesting perspective
Cindy: That’s really cool. I like the, the tactic there.
Gissele: because some students haven’t had the training, and I also teach them compassion throughout the year, like I give them practices that they can do.
Gissele: Because we haven’t been taught to sit in those uncomfortable conversations, people don’t want to hold that, and that really is the struggle. And I go back to what you had mentioned about we think that compassion is going to be, oh, we’re just gonna allow things to be. It requires strong boundaries, and it’s difficult to have strong boundaries and say, “I’m gonna listen to you, but I don’t have to change my mind and I don’t have to change your mind,” but that can feel really uncomfortable.
Gissele: what do you suggest to workplaces that may be struggling with those difficult conversations as [00:43:00] a way to get people to move closer together?
Cindy: Yeah. So of the activities that I’ve done with organizations when I’ve worked with them, one-on-one, is taking a common so whether it’s whatever workplace common issue that they have, and then let’s break this down on how we would have this conversation with an employee versus, the, the team lead or the manager, and how would you approach it normally? And then how can we approach it after they learn some of the, the qualities I have framework for kind leadership and see how it changes. When you have the difficult conversation, most times you’re just sitting across from them, you’re in a power move. That is already intimidating, so is there a way you can sit side by side? Even having that change will help relax the other person. They won’t get [00:44:00] defensive right away. They already know they probably messed up or screwed up, or there’s a reason that there’s this conversation. We’re not dumb, right? There’s– they’re wise enough for that. But then don’t start it off with, “This is what you did wrong.
Cindy: This is what needs to be fixed.” Say, “I really appreciate how you…” S- we call it a softening statement. I don’t know if you’ve heard that before, but… And it’s not like patting them on the back and then slamming them with the negative, but it’s like within that same situation, is there a way that you can soften it as you approach the real issue? “I really appreciate that you’ve put a lot of time and energy into this project. However, we’re getting close to the deadline, and it’s nowhere near the deadline, and we need to fix this, because if we don’t, then that causes X, Y, Z.” So you’re saying, “Hey, I appreciate that you’ve done this, but you’re taking too much time,” and that’s the real issue, right?
Cindy: We’re not gonna finish the project. Now that they know the issue, them for their feedback. Like, [00:45:00] how can they help solve this problem? You’re not solving, as the leader or the manager, you’re not trying to solve the problem for them. Allow them to have some feedback into the real issue, because maybe they’re like, “Hey, I’ve got five other projects, and I’m doing the best I can, and you tell me I have to leave at 5:00 PM because of work-life balance,” or whatever
Gissele: Yeah
Cindy: The… giving them that opportunity, and now of the leader or the manager coming in with perception of the situation, they have a better understanding of what that employee is actually dealing with, now you can collaborate together. The beautiful part about that is you’re allowing that person to be heard and seen and not just disciplined, right?
Cindy: And you’re not having that power move as the manager or the, the leader. The other thing is, does it have to be solved that moment in that meeting? Can you take a [00:46:00] breather? Can you say, “Okay, now that we all understand what is, the full picture, can we come back in an hour or maybe tomorrow morning and have a deeper conversation when we have time to process everything and we can breathe a little bit?” If time doesn’t allow, like can you give a 10-minute recess type of thing, because humans, we need time to process what just happened. And as you said, be with the emotions, right? Because what if that employee already feels terrible? Like they, they, again, having– focusing on people not up to up your life and, ruin things for the organization.
Cindy: They have positive intent. They already know they’re messed up. They know they’re gonna miss the deadline. They’re feeling pretty crappy about it anyway, and now you’ve pointed it out. But with the discussion, there might be a solution where they don’t have to handle it all on themselves. So sit with that for a minute, both sides, and then you can come [00:47:00] back say, “All right, so how should we solve this together?” it’s not a me against you, it’s a we, it’s a we problem, and as a leader, it’s always a we problem. It’s not their problem.
Gissele: Yes.
Cindy: It’s probably more your problem than theirs, if anything. It just helps build more collaboration. It helps build more trust. It helps build this open communication, and those things are so important when you are building kind culture or in a– it’s one of the things we talk about in being a kind leader, some of the traits.
Cindy: And those difficult conversations, if they happen more often before they get to the critical point, it would make everybody’s life a lot easier. So we should not avoid them. We should not push them off. I’ve had several conversations in my career that should’ve been brought to attention way sooner, and I share that. I had my nice leader, she, at my annual [00:48:00] review, told me I was doing a great job, I was like, “I was proud of myself,” right? And then three days later, I was fired. I wasn’t doing a great job, but she couldn’t have the conversation with me. Turns out I w- I had to turn my projects into her before she turned them into somebody else.
Cindy: She would fix everything then submit it. So this whole time, I think I’m doing everything right, and I’m not. And she would’ve just had a conversation with me, maybe I needed more training. Maybe I needed a little extra time. Maybe I needed something pulled off my plate so I could focus on this. I have no idea. But I always share, I’m like, “I’m pretty sure she lost out on a great employee,” because I really was trying hard
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah
Cindy: thought I was doing great, but she didn’t give me that opportunity.
Gissele: Yeah,
Cindy: And I’m
Gissele: the leader’s
Cindy: often-
Gissele: It does. It’s the leader’s inability to be able to hold that difficult s- the suffering of somebody else, right? Because they can’t … if you can’t do that for yourself, you can’t do that. And I was … Oh my God, [00:49:00] I can’t tell you the number of times I saw work plans where first of all, they were not clear.
Gissele: I’m like, try- what are you trying to say? What is it exactly you want the worker to do? They’re so evasive ’cause they don’t wanna really say. And during an evaluation should not be the first time where you’re hearing there’s problems. There should’ve been conversations along the way that there was a problem.
Gissele: So like you said, so the people can have the opportunity to turn the boat around, right? To improve or to maybe tell themselves that maybe this job isn’t for me. But if you’re not honest, and then people then s- get pigeonholed. They’re like, “Oh, that’s a good worker,” or they’re not a g- a, a good listener or, they’re messing up all the time.
Gissele: But we haven’t had honest conversations about what the real problem was, and people weren’t given an opportunity to really, really understand what’s going on for them, which is why I love your approach. It is based on so much curiosity, right? It’s based on, it’s based on giving the benefit of the doubt.
Gissele: And you had mentioned to me if [00:50:00] I had heard that before. We talk about the happiness sandwich. Have you heard of the happiness sandwich? If you’re giving bad news, you’re like, you start off with a positive, and then you give you have the difficult conversation, and then you end on a positive, right?
Gissele: And I learned that the hard way ’cause I used to be in quality assurance, and my thing was because of where I, how I was trained, I, we would just come of “This is where you’re failing. This is where you’re not meeting the mark,” da, right?
Gissele: Anyways, based on people’s reaction, you’re like, “Ooh, that’s not going down so well.” And so you’re like, “Oh, I gotta do this differently.” What are your thoughts on forgiveness in the workplace? I think this is a really important topic that it’s not often talked about. But yeah, I’m curious as to your thoughts.
Cindy: I think forgiveness, period, is such a hard thing to do, and it’s– And, I don’t know about you or your listeners as, as far as faith-driven, but I did hear a pastor share with me years ago, or share with the church, years ago, that forgiveness is more for you than anybody else.
Cindy: [00:51:00] And that has changed me in so many ways because I never saw it that way. If I forgive somebody, that means I’m letting them get away with whatever they did wrong towards me. But it’s not. It’s healing a piece of your heart. And I think in the workplace, that still rings true. They could still have messed up, you down, dropped the ball, whatever. By you forgiving them, saying, “I can move forward, and we can still together.” They already know the issue. They already know what they did, the forgiveness allows you to able to move forward. If you don’t have forgiveness in the workplace, then I think you just stay stuck, and there’ll just never be that or going forward.
Cindy: And that’s not to excuse their behavior. It’s just like in the outside world. If I forgive you for cheating on me or whatever, that hasn’t happened, thank God, but that doesn’t mean I excuse your [00:52:00] issues. It means that I have healed that part of me, that I’m not gonna no longer let it control me. Same thing in the workplace. If somebody lied or threw you under the bus, that’s happened to me totally took my idea and ran with it. If I didn’t forgive them, there’d have been no way I could continue to show up and work with them. they knew what they did, and the end result turned out just fine.
Cindy: But, like- They also had to earn my trust again, and that’s really hard.
Gissele: Yeah, for sure
Cindy: it depends on, obviously the act that had happened, but I think forgiveness is important enough if you want to continue building a strong team, strong relationships within the workplace, collaboration.
Cindy: If you don’t have that forgiveness, it won’t happen
Gissele: Yeah. I completely agree. One of the things I noticed in, which is why I love what you said was it wasn’t so much what we did. Sometimes you needed to let go of [00:53:00] people. Sometimes you needed to fire them. Sometimes they needed to have accountability. But it was the energy behind it.
Gissele: You can have the energy of “This job isn’t for you. We love you. Go with God. We might give you… ‘Cause we might end up having to go through this legal stuff. We’ll give you a comfortable package. Go find your life dream,” right? E- even if they did something wrong and say, “You know what? You didn’t know any better.
Gissele: You thought that this is what you needed to get. We don’t hate you. We don’t need to punish you. We just no longer need to have a relationship, so we need to let you go.” It’s the energy behind it. Or you can do it with resentment, and that’s what I saw in the workplace. It was like, not only did we wanna fire people, we wanted to punish them.
Gissele: We wanted to resent them. We created stories. Even after they were gone, they’re like, “Remember that person that used to w- do this and that?” It’s all of this, and we are holding that in our hearts, that resentment, that hate, that, that need to punish. And so what you’re inviting the listeners to do is just [00:54:00] can you release that yourselves from that place?
Gissele: That doesn’t mean you are like, “Oh, that behavior was okay,” or that they don’t need to stay, continue to stay in the workplace without some accountability. But it comes from a place of love and kindness and compassion and curiosity, not from the need to punish and hate and separate and isolate, right?
Gissele: Yeah.
Cindy: Yeah. It’s– That’s right on point. It’s that, yeah, that the energy is exactly
Gissele: Yeah. So the behavior doesn’t have to change. This person might have to get terminated. or they might have to get some accountability. That is okay. That, that it’s an opportunity for growth and learning. But it, we don’t have to hate them through it. We don’t have to desire to punish them through it.
Gissele: We don’t have to drink the poison so that they die, right? We don’t have to do that for ourselves, right? Even if you can’t find it within yourself, y- just be willing. So a couple of more questions. What is your definition of self-love?
Cindy: Man that’s a really good [00:55:00] question. I feel like being honest with myself and true to who I am and not try to be anybody other than authentic Cindy the truest form of self-love for me. I compare myself a lot to other people and, it can be really challenging and harmful to yourself when you do that. But knowing especially s- what I’ve been through, I have– I had a really great grief therapist and I was really having a hard time of this new Cindy, I really liked the Cindy with Scott.
Cindy: And she’s like she doesn’t exist anymore.” And I’m like that sucks because I liked her.” So trying to re-love myself of who I am now without Scott and who I will become, as I, I move through this journey. It’s appreciating everything that made me who [00:56:00] I am and just, being okay with that, right?
Cindy: I am not perfect. I am– I still have really challenging days. There’s da- I am called the kindness queen in my community, and I absolutely hate it because there’s days where I don’t feel so kind, right? And it’s I can’t go out in public ’cause if… But no, I’m like, “I’m human, so it’s okay.” Give myself grace, give themself grace, whatever. But yeah, self-love I think is just Being true to who you are and loving yourself through that, and knowing that I’m doing the best I can and I’m showing up for myself how I’d show up for my best friend, or my daughter. That’s I think, to me
Gissele: Beautiful answer.
Cindy: that
Gissele: Yes, it was such a beautiful answer, and you also brought up something really important, is that we think that we have to be perfect at kindness and compassion and love. But like you said we’re in– we’re having this human experience, and we mess up, and [00:57:00] it’s really just about the choice.
Gissele: What choice am I gonna make in the next moment? And okay, I messed up, but what am I gonna continue to choose? ‘Cause love and compassion are a choice, right? Like curiosity is a choice, and kindness is a choice. All of those are choices. Last question: Where can people find you? Where can they work with you?
Gissele: Where can they listen to your podcast?
Cindy: Yeah. Anywhere on social. Just in Cyndi Rowe. No, I’m on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, the things. I have a website thecyndirowe.com. That’s T-H-E cyndirowe.com. and then my podcast is The Kindness Advantage Podcast. That’s on all platforms, YouTube, or you can find it on my website as well, and you’ll be a guest on my show, and I’m really excited about that too.
Cindy: And yeah, I work with all sorts of organizations. I don’t do one-on-one coaching or anything like that. But even if you find me and you’re struggling with something a way to approach something, I– like, just [00:58:00] inbox me and just say that you heard me and you want in, insight or advice on how to approach it.
Cindy: Way… I have such a giving heart, so I will help however. But on my show and on my socials, I share part of my journey, but I also just share easy ways to incorporate kindness into your everyday personal or professional life. And it’s a, a true passion of mine, and I, I don’t know.
Cindy: I think that’s– this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And so
Gissele: Yeah.
Cindy: to be loud and proud about it.
Gissele: Yeah. Thank you so much, Cindy, for being on this show and for sharing your wisdom on how to have greater kindness for ourselves and other people, and definitely in the workplace. And thank you to everyone who tuned in for another episode of Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. See you soon