TRANSCRIPT
Gissele: was Martin Luther King Jr. right? does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Does it have the power to heal? This year, we’re creating an inspiring documentary called Courage to Love The Power of Compassion, which explores the extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who have caused them deep harm.
Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love, not only to those offering it, but also on those receiving it. In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether love and compassion part of our human nature, and how we can bridge divides with those we disagree with.
If you’d like to support our film, please donate at www [00:01:00] maitricentre.com/documentary. That’s Maitricentre documentary. Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content.
Today we’re talking about the power of play in relationships, and we’re chatting with Peter Anderson. Peter Anderson is our relationship mentor performer, an author of the Playful Couple love, laughter, and lasting con connection. He helps couples rediscover the joy, spontaneity, and emotional safety that keep love vibrant, growing on decades of coaching.
Neuroscience, improv theater and therapy tools like IFS and Holy Vagal Theory. He teaches partners how to transform communication, reignite intimacy, and co-create a playful, passionate bond. His journey spans from professional dance and comedy [00:02:00] improv to transformational leadership coaching, all of which now fuel the playful couple experience.
He believes love isn’t something you manage, it’s something you create moment to moment through laughter, curiosity, and trust. Whether helping partners shift from conflict into connection or routine into romance, he loves sharing practical, heartfelt tools that invite couples to fall in love again with each other and with life.
Please join me in welcoming Peter. Hi Peter.
Peter: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. A lovely introduction.
Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. can you start by telling the audience a little bit about how you got started in this work?
Peter: Well, I suppose I’ve always been interested in the physicality, the connection with the body and that drew me to become a professional dancer and how that [00:03:00] connection, although on a performance level could really give to an audience somehow internally.
I didn’t quite have that wisdom yet. And as I went on and I had relationships that were very, fun, exciting, playful relationships, but there was a loneliness in there, a sense of, holding back that I wasn’t completely safe to be who I truly was. And to get to that point when I had to untangle many different, avenues within my own self.
And that led me to studying NLP, mindfulness,nonviolent communication, timeline therapy, Thai massage, craniosacral therapy. I just went just, I was like, I have to figure this out, because I felt that there was, in my family environment, which was very caring, there was an element missing that my mom and father weren’t really in love.
[00:04:00] And if that was my education, how do I go and find that for myself? There was something that was missing that I needed to untangle. And so. As I went along, I was doing the coaching for people and individual coaching. I did business coaching. I had events and networks and, and they were, they were fulfilling, but something I wasn’t really firing from my deep heart passion.
Mm-hmm. And it’s when I did the work and I finally had, a healthy relationship myself, and it was no longer the sense that I thought, I may not get this fantasy. Or is it just a fantasy of you find somebody and you really hold and build together? I like, I didn’t have that pure sense of what that was.
And then I did, and it was a little bit like, imagine to win the lottery. It’s like, got it. And [00:05:00] I, that means I’m gonna spend some time on this planet. Knowing that I had it and what it was and what the poetry’s about and what the films are about and what all this stuff that I, I yearn for and I couldn’t quite get there.
And, and then, my work started to turn, couples started coming to me and I started working with couples and, and I found that it wasn’t, we, you do work where you go in and you find, traumas and you untangle them, but there’s also the playfulness of the couple there. Yeah. What techniques do we have in therapy to be playful?
I don’t think there are any, and because of comedy improvisation, it’s whole structure is on play and connection and listening and building and giving presence, I thought what a wonderful way to marry those two ways of growing. So that’s how it came across to where I’m today.
Gissele: Hmm. Beautiful, beautiful. I was just thinking, last night I [00:06:00] just watched a movie on improv comedians that actually turn into,I, I guess they get sort of caught up in this, world of like, drugs.
Oh, okay. It’s actually a really great comedy. I, I strongly suggest you watch it. Oh, okay.
Peter: I might look into that. Yeah.
Gissele: Yeah. It’s, it’s about improv comedians that actually end up sort of getting caught because they weren’t making any money cut into this. I don’t wanna give any too much away, but it’s, it’s actually quite funny.
Yeah. I wanna go back to what you mentioned about your parents. so, so why do you think they were together? Do you think that they were together out of obligation? They were together out of like habit? Like what was it that you were picking up that clearly they were together? Not out of love, but out of what?
Peter: Yes. I, I think it’s that big question about what is love? I think it gets into a real deep get with people, and we believe that we are in love, but if there’s a certain level of discomfort, it’s probably not, unconditional love. And I think, and [00:07:00] especially, in their era, there was no YouTube, there was no, you can’t get, there’s no self health books.
There was, it was like you just learn from your environment. So.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Peter: for me, they both supported each other in a very special way. my dad was very calm, very good in, events, dangerous events and things like that. He was, he could really, my mom wasn’t so good in that, way, but my mom was very structured.
my dad wasn’t so structured, so they, they kind of balanced off their, their weak points to, to become stronger together. And they were fond of each other and they still are today. I mean, we still have big family parties where everyone comes together. So there’s still a sense of, of bonding. But the in, and, and I think this is where it echoes back to me, but the, there was a loneliness with the two of them that they didn’t really gel outside those things that supported each other.
And, I didn’t want to be, I [00:08:00] didn’t wanna spend my life with that type of, and it wasn’t major, it was like niggling conflict. It was just unhappy. So there wasn’t any major thing going on that you could write home about or in the newspapers. It was constant, just lack. And unfortunately, I went and did the same thing in my relationships.
Hmm. my mom and dad are quite fun together, when they’re in the right space. And I found partners that we were really fun together in the right space.
Gissele: Hmm.
Peter: But again, that, that sense of being truly who you are and feeling vibrant from that space, took a long time to unlearn that.
Gissele: Hmm hmm. And when I think about my own experiences
I came into my relationships with a lot of, like all of my baggage, right? And then my partners all came with their baggage. How important do you think it is for us to address our own baggage ourselves before we even.[00:09:00]
Come into these relationships and how early should we be addressing our baggage?
Peter: Yes. Now this is a very interesting question that I’ve pondered over quite a bit. ’cause there was one part, if we work on ourselves too much, we get focused on that we’re not enough and that we’re damaged. And I, if I just learn one more thing, if I just learn another more thing, if I break, oh, there’s another trauma, I’ll fix that.
I’ll do this course, I’ll read that. And you can get lost in this cycle of trying to heal. And it can almost become an addiction in itself. Mm-hmm. That you don’t get to the core issue because you’re constantly trying to scrabble around with, and sometimes just being who you are is enough. And in other times, that trauma just keeps on knocking at the door and it doesn’t allow you to be who you are.
It’s visiting that trauma and getting to know it with compassion [00:10:00] and without judgment, and that caring of that younger part of yourself and, and giving it the support and the love that it needed so it can, it can release that, that grip that it has within the darkness. So I was on the school of thought, well, my passion was I was gonna work on myself and I was gonna make sure, and I wasn’t gonna have another relationship until I was completely healed.
So I didn’t wanna go through the pain again. And I took full responsibility for it. And I worked and I worked. And when I met my partner, I was hesitant to get into the relationship. I didn’t trust my, my own radar. I was like, I dunno, by just pulling in the same, I’m in love with the same trauma and I, I haven’t learned, I haven’t,the Phoenix hasn’t risen from the ashes.
I’ve still got water. So I didn’t, I was nervous and she was just like, we’re just learn together.
Gissele: Mm.
Peter: And for me, that was [00:11:00] awakening in myself. ’cause I’d always tried to do it on my own. but now I was with somebody who said, yeah, I’ve got stuff that I need to work on. let’s be together. Let’s not harm each other.
Let’s take responsibility of what we need to work on and just let’s hold the space and find a way of learning that when it does come in, that we are safe enough to express it without harming the other person. And that meant that in this relationship we could actually evolve. And sometimes there’s challenging parts, but we never raised our voices.
We never got irritated, we never walked out of the house. We’ve never done any of that because we’ve formed a foundation where we can be safe within our communication. So going back to your fundamental question, I think it depends on the individual where you are. But there is a way that, and I think that’s where the premise of what I’m doing is, is if you learn to speak lovingly with each other, you can grow together.
And then that sense of, that, that connection, the oxytocin [00:12:00] of holding somebody or holding the space for somebody or your nervous system, balancing off with somebody else and growing within that atmosphere can be very powerful. And I found when I was doing all the learning on my own, there was a, an emptiness, a loneliness, which some of it had to be done, but still there was a quality with somebody else that made it a little bit more vibrant.
Gissele: I like that.what helped you create that sense of safety within the relationship? you were talking about that you both felt safe to be able to be authentic and make mistakes and all that stuff. Mm. So what helped you create that level of safety?
Peter: Well, there’s a few things. I, there’s an internal sense and there’s an external sense, so mm-hmm.
Internally, when the triggers come off, when, when they’re fired off, it can send you offline. So there’s, I, there’s, I’m not sure, are you familiar with the ACEs research the adverse childhood? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the researcher talks about how [00:13:00] when the cold saw floods, the mind, how, you get younger and younger, the more stressed you get, the younger you get.
So if you’re aware that, oh, I’m getting stressed, I’m going offline, I’m now. 15, I’m now, yeah, 12, I’m now four and I’m stamping and having a, if you can observe that, emotional state, you start to learn your nervous system. So when the IT triggers you go, okay, I’m gonna just bring myself back. What I’m feeling isn’t, I’m under attack.
I’m not at deaths door and I need to fight for my survival. It’s a reaction that I’m having in my body and I’m gonna just sit with that discomfort. So when you both are able to sit with the trigger, you don’t attack each other. So that creates a sense of safety already just holding the energy of a trigger.
And it’s not easy ’cause they come in hard and they can really push and they can come in fast as well. Mm-hmm. So that [00:14:00] is a learning in itself and just learning to do that will start to give a foundation of safety. And then you have your language. And unfortunately we don’t have an education in how to speak lovingly to each other.
Gissele: Yeah, agreed.
Peter: So if you have, like in nonviolent communication, they, they make it very clear this type of violent language that we, we use that will get a negative reaction. So if you are blaming, if you’re shaming, if you’re generalizing, if you’re judging, if you are comparing, if you’re doing these things.
And I hear it with couples stroke, bang, fire, fire. And in, in about three sentences, they could have five loaded weapons that attack. And they’re like, why are they reacting? I just, and they can say it really calmly. You can say, you are a really horrible person and I hate you so much and I really wish that you would just leave my [00:15:00] life.
You can. It, just because you say something with a a soft tone doesn’t mean that it’s not full of violent, unintentional communication. So being conscious of your language and that if you want to, achieve connection, if you strike somebody, it’s gonna make that chance of connection a lot harder. So it’s taking responsibility in your language.
If I want that connection, I can’t say it’s because of you, you make me, I feel that you make me angry. So just those kind of languages going. Another one that I find that is really fundamental for feeling safe in communication is that what you have to say, you put on pause for a moment and you go into the other person’s world and you become curious about what’s going on for them.
So if they’ve done something that is you don’t, [00:16:00] doesn’t work for you, you try and understand what is going on for them, where the decisions came from, what that was going on. And when the person feels completely understood, a very wonderful thing happens. It’s like all the tension just goes.
And again, you’re in a safe environment and then you can say, this is what’s going on for me. This is how it feels. And it’s not about being nice because I have been nice many times in my life that’s caused me a lot of, destruction. Because I haven’t been true to, to really mm-hmm. What I want to do. I’m trying to be nice to the situation, to somebody else.
And so I, I am not a, a big fan of being nice, but a big fan of being compassionate.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. And,
Peter: and finding a way to, to listen, to understand. And then also there are days we are human that it just goes absolutely wrong. Yeah. Lack of sleep a problem at work. things [00:17:00] aren’t working one after the other, after the other after.
And this is just the final straw. Some days are just not good. And then you have, you’ve got that rupture and then you’ve got the repair. And how you repair is an, can be an amazing way to take your relationship to another level as well.
Gissele: I completely agree with that. I think that’s what I found. You know, like there, people think that there should ever be conflict.
The truth of the matter is we’re so different. Like there’s so much diversity in the world that it’s not about never having some level of conflict. It is about, like you said, curiosity as a stepping stone to compassion and then the, the willingness to come together. Like I always say to my children, you know, the relationship has to be more valuable than being right, right?
Mm-hmm. It has to be more important than being right because we can really get stuck in our right is in our need to be right and our need to push our agenda, but then we [00:18:00] are then fracturing the relationship. So like you said, that coming together I think kind of can create a level of depth in our relationships when we can kind of get to the other side.
Peter: I think the, the need to be right to win in, in an argument, you’ve, if people ask themselves what, what is the, the, the prize?
Gissele: Mm mm-hmm. The
Peter: prize is us being together then, or is the prize I wanna win and I wanna see them crumble, I wanna make sure that I leave here and they are weaker than I am.
Gissele: Yeah. So what I was gonna say was, one of the things I’ve discovered in, in sort of being in, in working with people that have that mentality of being right, there’s underneath that there’s a sense of like, if I’m not right, I’m not valued. If I’m not right, I’m not worthy if I’m not right.
And so there’s this a level of, so this is why there’s a level, [00:19:00] sometimes a level of shame. When they’re not right. And so that’s hence the fight to be, right? Mm-hmm. And it’s like once you let go of the association between realism and value, people can start to feel more comfortable in being, oh, that’s okay.
It’s, I made a mistake. That’s when you look at our society, we have not reinforced being wrong or making mistakes or being vulnerable even in the school system, right? Children are taught there’s one right way of doing things and this is the right answer and this is the, and so it’s all about the right.
And so people get really stuck in that mode. And his, yeah. Go ahead.
Peter: Oh no, you just reminded me of something that was very interesting. I remember, I was performing in, I think it was, you know, Beijing or something, and we had an audience and we had a discussion afterwards and this person in the audience said what she saw from.
The show and she says is right. And I found that very [00:20:00] interesting because for me the arts is somewhere where right and wrong don’t need to exist. Your feeling or your interpretation of it is correct. And I had this discussion with her about, like you’re saying about the school system. And this is why I feel that the arts needs to be more in the school system.
So we get that balance of mentality. ’cause there is a time where if it’s a mass equation, I dunno, I’m not great a mass, but right there is a clear right and wrong. And if you don’t then it’s not gonna work and everything else falls apart. But within the arts and comedy improvisation, you are looking for the mistakes.
You are waiting for the mistakes because there the gold dust that give you something unique to take you in a direction past your consciousness or your your paradigm. It’s the mistakes that open up the possibility. And I feel. We have something missing in the, in training our minds when we only have the wrong and right and we’re not training the [00:21:00] possibilities that come.
Allowing mistakes. Looking for mistakes.
Gissele: Yeah. And, and it prevents us from really critically thinking, right? Like, again, we just look for the right and wrong. But when you’re thinking about the arts, even in how arts are taught in the school system, it’s still very much in the box color within the lines, do this, structure this way.
So that’s why I will say like, there’s a level of courage that comes from improv, like in terms of being able to think on your feet and to be able to be vulnerable and make a mistake and sort, and yeah. So I, I really, appreciate that.
Peter: Yeah. I remember I was teaching in university, it was a, a dance course.
I was doing choreography and, I didn’t realize that I had to mark them. I thought I was just, I hadn’t done my, I hadn’t had a proper discussion, so I said, yeah, you need to, to mark the students. I was like, I, I can’t do that.
Gissele: Mm.
Peter: And they were like, no, but for them to pass the course, I said, I can’t, I can’t mark them.
because they may be creating something, they may be becoming far [00:22:00] more influential artists than I am. And I go to them from my perspective and go, oh no, you haven’t done what I wanted. But they may be growing in a direction that I don’t even know what tomorrow as an artist will be expressing. So to Mark, somebody could kill off an artist or the potential of an artist.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. And I had a
Peter: really hard time about it. And then we came to an agreement and what I did is I said, okay, if everyone hits this, this, this, and this, and this. What I want, based on what I am delivering. Then you’ll get your marks. So everyone hits it and everyone got a nine. So I, I said they wanna chase me up about it, it’s fine.
Gissele: Wow. That’s awesome. Going back to our conversation about couples. Mm-hmm. you know, so when you started your relationship, you started, sort of started obviously from a place of growth.
’cause you, ’cause you had done a lot of work on yourself and your partner obviously was in a particular journey. What do you say to couples that have already, who might have met, like earlier when [00:23:00] they had all those traumas and whatever, and who might have gone on the journey where there might be resentment, whether, whether there might be that lack of safety.
How do you then start carving away to get to where. You trust each other more, you can be more playful and so on.
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. there’s, and this is something where my approach may be different than a therapist’s approach. ’cause a therapist’s approach is to generally is to heal the couples. Mm. Come back and to be happily together.
You are broken. I will fix you. Mm-hmm. Yes. My approach is slightly different. My approach is we need you both to be the full potential of who you are. And when you become the full potential of who you are, are you still the right match?
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Peter: So it may mean when you truly let go of your trauma or your resentment or something, you may find that you’re not actually the right match.
Yeah. And if [00:24:00] that’s, and then what does that mean to lovingly go on your way to find the right match? Because if you’ve come together for your trauma, you may, when you’ve untangled the trauma, the dance may stop.
Yeah.
So yeah, it’s a hard thing to, ’cause when you are there, sometimes you’ve got that connection.
You don’t wanna let it go. But sometimes it takes the courage and go, this is actually, we are not actually the love that we want to have on this planet. We are not the two that are gonna give it. And so for me it’s, I say, let’s do the work. Let’s find out what’s going on. Let’s release as much as we can.
Let’s do the playfulness. Let’s, and let’s see what happens when you get to, when the resentment’s gone, when the anger’s gone, and when the, let’s see who we are today. And if. You ask in a loving, unconditional, loving space, then great. Let’s just add, add a little bit more spice in there. Let’s just get the flavor just right so the ingredients can [00:25:00] bake into a nice, yeah.
A nice cake or something.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. But
Peter: it’s, so it’s, for me, it’s not so much everybody, it’s not a sense, like a therapist will try and go, okay, I will fix you, and you all go together and it may not be the case.
Gissele: Yeah. And that’s, that’s very honest. And, and I think for, for some people, like, especially if you have children,
Peter: yeah.
Gissele: That might be a bit of a challenge. You know, it’s a huge, huge
Peter: challenge. Yeah.
Gissele: It’s, it’s a huge challenge because then if the children are happy, then you are impacting, like, it’s one thing to be on your own and you’re dating someone, or you’re married someone. But without children, you can easily say, well, it’s been nice to know you.
I’ve grown, you’ve grown. Bye-bye. Then when you have additionally other people in the role. Then it makes that more challenging because then now you’re impacting other people’s.
Peter: Absolutely.
Gissele: Happiness. So when do you say to couples who might struggle with them?
Peter: Yeah, there’s a, there’s a few things. It’s again, a choice.
mm-hmm. I [00:26:00] think if, well there’s this research, if you are unhappily together and you just stay together and you’re unhappy, the kids are gonna feel that and they’re learning what a relationship is for their future. So you’re giving them an education of, for a generation to repeat a pattern. if you can be together, not really as just for the children, you say, okay, there’s not so much, and there’s all sorts of relationships nowadays, how people find ways of surviving.
They may find that intimacy elsewhere and be together, co-parent within the house and love each other as friends, but not, and so. For each individual, there’s a very complex way of finding out what is true for the, for each couple.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Peter: but if you are being violent towards each other verbally, it is better that you separate lovingly and create a loving coexistence with respect and kindness [00:27:00] that your kids can see that and feel that then to be brought up in a, verbally violent, place.
But then you ask some kids what they want and they said, I don’t care. I just want my parents to be together and that the separation is gonna have, its, its trauma within itself. And then they’re gonna have to unpack that for years to come. So I think for each individual, it’s always, there’s not a, a template.
For, a relationship. Each human is complexed and each dynamic within the family is complex.
Gissele:
Peter: and so you have to investigate what is your dynamic, what is your, your culture within your, your home, and how does that culture best survive? Is it best surviving, being together? If you’re not loving, how do you create a culture that you can still to together and be loving?
Or does that mean moving apart? And if you moving apart, how do you stay loving? So the, for me, the fundamental [00:28:00] is how do we stay in love or in loving, compassionate mindset with our tribe? What is the best choice to make for the children and for ourselves? So it’s a un, like you said, it’s not like individuals making choices.
It’s how do we come together for the best, for ourselves and the children?
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I the past I had been in relationships where I thought I was happy and then I didn’t realize how unhappy I was.
Like I was not in awareness of like, how do people know if they’re truly, like you said, in in in the best relationship for themselves?
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. When you were in that relationship and you weren’t aware, what was the pain level in that relationship compared to the love level
Gissele: High.
Peter: And what was the sense of connection with compared to loneliness
Gissele: High.
and I only found out from external people. ’cause I, I guess I didn’t have the awareness to be able to tell myself. [00:29:00] Yeah. And so like, life is a mirror, is it not? It’s such a beautiful, beautiful life.
Yeah.
People were by mirror and we’re saying like, this isn’t quite right. Like the, you are not like happy, you’re not like blah, blah, blah. And yeah. But these are things I wouldn’t tell myself. I, I didn’t, I was like quietly suffering. I didn’t know. Yeah. But Peter, I was also quietly suffering because underneath all that, and that’s why that relationship was so helpful.
Underneath all that was a lack of self worth. I didn’t think I was worthy. I, I didn’t think I was ever enough.
Yeah.
And so I was waiting for the other person to just go away. So for me it was a huge awakening. Sorry. Go ahead.
Peter: Yeah. And I think that’s what, I think these are clues waiting for the other person to go away.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: That’s those little whispers.
Gissele: mm-hmm. there was another one that came to my mind when you said that. but yeah, just, I [00:30:00] mean, just at that, those, it’s the whispers that come, come up that if I, or if if I work a little bit harder, if I come a little bit better or they become, if they do something different, then it’ll be okay.
Peter: Yes.
Gissele: There’s like
Peter: a condition into the future.
Gissele: Yeah. It was always about the other person, what they weren’t doing for me.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: Like they’re doing this to me. They’re doing this thought they’re doing. Yeah. Like I was constantly in that victim mode and Yeah. And they
Peter: would just change. Yes. They would just change.
Yeah. Yeah.
Gissele: If they would just be better, then it would be fine. Would make relationship. Mm-hmm.
Peter: Mm-hmm. These are all the clues that come along that you are not in a loving relationship.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: When you’re in a loving relationship, it’s not about them changing tomorrow. They’re absolutely fine right now.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: And even if, that’s one of the
Gissele: things I had to learn. Sorry, go ahead.
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. And even if they irritate you with some things mm-hmm. It’s just like, oh, there we go again. But it’s not like I, if I will only love them when they change that behavior. [00:31:00] Yeah.
Gissele: And that was one of the fundamental things I had to learn, which is I like, I didn’t wanna marry someone that I had to change.
Peter: Yes. Yeah.
Gissele: Like I, and the other thing too is because like relationships haven’t flow, right?
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: And so I remember there was a situation for me where I was like, okay, stay or go stay, go. I was like, whatever I decide, I have to fully decide
Can’t ‘
cause Have you found this in terms of ambivalence?
Ambivalence is the worst thing that you can experience, which is like you stay but you wanna leave. Yeah. Or you, you are there, but you want the person to be different. Like, or you go, but you want like, it’s that, it’s that indecision that I think causes a lot of suffering. I think when you fully make a choice, if you’re choosing to forgive someone’s, for example, infidelity, then choose to forgive, right?
Yeah. But to stay with someone and then resent them [00:32:00] for the rest of their life.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: That causes a lot of,
Peter: and I think especially with something like infidelity, I think you’ve both gotta come together and say the relationship is over, it’s finished. Mm. Doesn’t mean that we may not be together in the future.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Peter: Or the relationship that we thought I thought we had, or you may have not thought that we had, but it wasn’t clear. But whatever that relationship is finished.
Yeah.
Then you make a decision. If we’re staying together, we have to build what our rules are and are we, are we abiding by those rules and building a trust on the new creation of what’s going on?
And if there was something in the old relationship that led that you either, you need to do this and that has to become a conversation that you are not, just one and one person is not for you. And I would choose whether I’m okay with that or not okay with that. Or if, you were hurt in a certain way that you, that you felt lonely or there’s something inside you that isn’t okay that you need to sort out, but that is [00:33:00] over.
You have broken the trust of that relationship. And we have to make a decision how we go forward from here and what are the rules and not the rules of society, but what rules do we feel comfortable with and that each person doesn’t compromise how they need to be loved.
Gissele: Hmm. Do you know what I, I love that you said that.
The reason why is because of the people that I know that have experienced that it’s usually one person making the rules
mm-hmm. For
them to be safe. Mm-hmm. And the other person has to abide by the rules or leave the relationship. I, this is the first time. And it could be that other therapists have said that or whatever, but this is the first time I’m hearing that even the person who committed the perpetration has a right to say what is working or, or is gonna work for them moving forward.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: And I think that’s very fair because then there’s usually the setup that person is in perpetually being punished for. And then the other person is perpetually seeing themselves as the victim or impacted by the behavior. And [00:34:00] neither of them feel free or neither of them feel that love.
Peter: yeah, and I think like, it’s like with all, it’s, every single story almost has its own backbone to it or its own. Mm, mm-hmm. And some infidelity is because somebody doesn’t care about anybody else and they just do what they want.
Other people are trying, they’re in a loveless relationship and they need to try and find love somewhere else so they can actually stay with the playlist. There’s so many different ways of, so just to go, oh, it’s good or bad, it is missing the nuances of, of starting a new relationship if you choose to stay together because like you said, you could stay together and one person could either be in fear that they’ll never be able to trust them again.
Or another person feel like they’re gonna shame me for the rest of my life and I didn’t really wanna do this, but it happened. And so it’s like, whatever. your experiences. It’s, it’s listening to each other, understanding and going back to the core of who you are and how you need to be loved in order to, to recreate a [00:35:00] relationship.
Gissele: Hmm. I love that. let’s talk about play.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: Because I don’t know about you. I never saw my parents really playing around. Periodically, they would like play with one another in terms of words or sarcasm and whatever, like, you know, as a way of coming together. But for the most part, the marriage was like, my parents loved each other very much and do, they’re still both alive.
but, there was always a sense of responsibility. Like it’s work, it’s responsibility, it’s right. And when I see my husband’s parents, it was the same. It was that responsibility. There was no, there is no, like, I didn’t see a lot of joy, right? Like, I didn’t see a lot of that. So what are some things that people can start doing to start bringing out more of that play in light of all of the responsibilities that people feel, right?
Peter: Yeah. I think especially in a household with lots of children, there’s mm-hmm. It’s a, every other [00:36:00] moment there’s a stressor that you’re dealing with.
Gissele: yeah. Especially teens.
Peter: Yeah. Yeah.
Teens. Sometimes I
Gissele: love my teens, but sometimes like Yeah, sometimes they, they definitely challenge me.
Peter: Yeah. You have to move and swift and, and dive and also not take things personally. Zigzag.
Gissele: Yeah,
Peter: exactly. You zag Z you gotta be fucking weave and die.
Gissele: Dodge.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: oh, I forgot the question I’ve got.
Oh yeah. Play. yes. So one of the things with, And I think it’s so important. I find not everybody is playful and that’s okay as well.
Gissele: Yeah. Oh,
Peter: I like that when I, yeah. Yeah. ’cause the, the playful couple are for people that want to play.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Some
Peter: people may be very happy, you know, I don’t know.
In a drama class, some kids, I don’t wanna do drama. I just wanna sit down and do my master equation. Yeah. Yeah. And I get my happiness from that. And so it’s
Gissele: mm-hmm.
Peter: The playful couple won’t be for all couples. This is for couples that want, enjoy that connection and either don’t quite know how to get it, [00:37:00] or have lost them, or they had it mm-hmm.
Know what they had. Yeah. And they’re doing what they did, and they don’t understand why it changed. And all it is is remind ’em, you were doing this, you were doing that. Oh yeah. So let’s, let’s bring that back in again. Mm-hmm. I
Gissele: love that. Mm-hmm.
Peter: So there’s one thing that I find that play does play. Has a turning towards each other.
It’s a acknowledgement of each other. And so when, and this is from comedy improvisation, which I think is really beautiful, is, when you give a gift, a playful gift. And I just, just, I think sometimes people gotta be careful of humor. ’cause humor can be quite aggressive and quite,violent in its own structure.
It can really be putting down shaming. And so sometimes people hide behind, humor as a form of connection when it actually knocks somebody away. And that’s why playfulness for me is very important. ’cause in play. Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] You’re not knocking anybody down at the, at the expense of a laugh. Oh, I found that funny.
It’s not about, I, it’s about, we find it funny. So I love
Gissele: that you said that. ’cause you know, there there is this whole argument about comedy and does it need to be so basing of other people?
Peter: Yeah. Many different ways. Yeah. And it’s, it is a tough one, isn’t it? ’cause it’s almost, and I find the difference between maybe a relationship and a, like a comedian is a comedian’s on stage.
Mm. They performing and it comes to an end and you something like you paid a ticket or you turn on the tv, you’ve made a choice to engage. And you may not like it and you turn it off, or you walk out mm-hmm. In your relationship. If you want the relationship, you can’t walk away. You can’t hide, you can’t.
So the performance isn’t over. You
Gissele: turn the person off.
Peter: You turn them off.
Gissele: Where’s that mute? Where’s that mute? Yeah, go ahead. Yes,
Peter: please, Frank. [00:39:00] so you ha it’s a, it’s a consistent relationship. It’s a marathon as a, it keeps on going. So, if you turn off the comedian and go, I’m not watching that person again, and then it’s gone.
But in your relationship, if you hit with harsh humor, that puts people down. There’s only so much hits you can have before it starts to drain your energy. And what do you, again, again, what do you want to win? Do you wanna win a quick laugh that you feel, ha ha, that was funny. Oh, stop being so sensitive.
Gissele: So sensitive.
Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. But what does it mean to play that we have fun together? That it’s a shared experience and the, it comes back with so much more energetically when mm-hmm. You give somebody a gift, a playful gift, they take it, they go, oh, this is fun. And they give it back with a slight little bit of that exaggeration and the other person takes it and goes, oh, that was funny.
Here, I’ll give it back with a little bit more exaggeration on there. Oh, is that all you’re giving me? [00:40:00] What? And you get into this and it can be so simple as,I’m just gonna try and find an example of something simple. And I didn’t have one on the top of my head, but it can be a very simple interaction.
Gissele: Yeah. I think what you’re talking about is reciprocity, right? Like you’re talking about. Yes. Yeah. Like, it’s like what you said, and I think it’s very important. So I’m gonna repeat it. Yeah. Which is, it’s, it’s the we are playing. Yeah. The, we are having fun, not just one person at the extent of another, hoping that the other person will accept they’re,
Peter: yeah.
Gissele: Their humor, right?
Peter: What, what I find very interesting when like researching into the polyvagal theory and understanding how, and also this, ’cause this came a lot when I was studying craniosacral therapy and you’re going into the nervous system a lot and the brain stem and, and then how energetically we balance each other off.
We regulate each other for our nervous system. And that when you are [00:41:00] playing and you’re turning into each other, that you can almost get a sense that your nervous system is pulsating when you are, when you are connected. And it’s very hard to get physical intimacy in your life if you’re not having that nervous of your nervous system pulsating in rhythm together.
So some people are making so-called love together when it’s either a chore or it’s like, well, we haven’t done it for a long time. Or, you’ve had, it is like you’re not really in the same zone, but somebody’s got a, a chemical thing that’s going for their body, but is it really? Are you together? And it’s that sense.
The more you are together, the more your physical intimacy will be in that flow. You’re not kind of stop and starting, oh, it’s Saturday, or it’s it’s your birthday. Or it’s like, it’s just we are playing and today we want to take that into deeper intimacy. And it [00:42:00] just keeps that connection and it becomes more, yeah, I think, yeah, it is just that flow, that flow within the relationship.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. It’s funny that you, you mentioned that I was thinking about. The difference sometimes between men and women, and not all men and not all women, right? Mm-hmm. But the, the examples I had growing up, which was the women crave more of that intimate one-on-one connection and time together, whereas sometimes for the men in my family was just more the,
intimacy, the physical intimacy. And it’s like, well, how do you marry the two so that everyone gets what they need? Right? Yeah. Like how do you combine, instead of it being like the whining about like, oh, we just don’t spend enough time together. How do you meld the two so that everyone, like you said, everyone feels loved, and what does it take for each of us to feel loved?
Which I think is an amazing question.
Peter: Yeah. And I think the, for [00:43:00] me and people who enjoy a playful relationship that, that you are spending time together. But you’re not just sitting down. And, I remember when I was in my teens, I had crushes on girls and things like that, but the idea of walking around, holding their hand brought the daylights out of me that, I want a girlfriend to climb trees with me.
It was the, it was a, I needed to be active while some people sit and they can just have a glass of wine and it’s very romantic, but if you want to sit, and discuss and that you’re being playful at the same time, if you’ve got different types of energies, both can get the same thing. You’ve got that intimacy, that connection, and you’ve got the playfulness that something active is happening as well.
And it can bridge to energetic worlds. So both feel that they’re getting exactly what they want at the same time. Mm-hmm.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Let’s talk a little [00:44:00] bit about, conflict in relationships.
cause you know, one of the most beautiful things I heard, from friends is like, you know, we we’re looking at this world that where there’s so much conflict, there’s so much division between people, there’s so much, you know, like so many issues, so much separation.
And yet many people don’t acknowledge that within their own family systems, within their family units, there’s so much division, there’s so much conflict, right? Yeah. Like, we’re trying to solve the world’s problems, but we can’t even solve the problems of like, I’m not talking to so and so, or, or I’m in constant resistance.
It’s that, it’s, it’s, it’s for me that the feeling of disharmony and resistance between, what are some things that people can do in order to sort of ease that resistance and start to connect a little bit more?
Peter: Again, there’s quite, there’s quite a lot to it we can do, but I think I. Outside some of the things we discussed already.
I think, one thing that also opened my mind up quite a lot when I did [00:45:00] NLP is there’s parts of it that’s based on
gestalt therapy and how we have different parts and how we communicate with those parts. And then I studied a bit of,internal family systems and it was, almost a more expansive understanding of parts than I had previously, learned.
And there was an interest in, in helping with conflict within that, that when I sometimes work with couples. A couple might come out and go, I don’t like what you’re doing. This is this, this, this. And then the other person’s like, what are they talking about? They do it as well. They, we do it together. Well, what do you mean you don’t like that?
I don’t understand. It’s the, and then when you have understanding that we’re not a one person
Gissele: mm-hmm.
Peter: That we’re a one identity and you can just put us into a box and that we’re always that, that, that thing that we are a clo complex, diverse being within ourselves.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: And that sometimes we may, [00:46:00] a part of us may feel one way and another part may be completely contradictory to that and feel the other way.
So when we understand we are not a one, type of person, it also opens up compassion a little bit more. The sense that, yeah. Hold on a second. Who am I speaking to at this moment? I’m not gonna say, but you just said this, you said that earlier. Or it’s like, okay, this is right, you’re saying right now, let me hear it, let me get to know it so that we start to understand the parts of the individuals, the different characters within the individuals.
So it’s almost like that everybody in your system feels loved, not just the one, fantasy image we have of how we’ve condensed that person into there. Mm-hmm. So I think it’s broadening our perspective on who, what a human being is. mm-hmm. Like when we have politicians and I, I find myself doing this, they make decisions where I’m just like, I have done in the past that I hate [00:47:00] you.
Gissele: Mm.
Peter: That they have signed off bombing in a country as if it’s just, A celebration. Yeah. A celebration of technical advancements and power. Yeah. And I just find it re but then I found when I go, I hate you for your decision. I have activated the same kind of energy.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: On a very small, yes.
But I’ve activated the same hatred.
Gissele: So Yeah, the same dehumanization the same. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. So that’s where compassion gets really challenging. It’s like, okay, their decision goes against everything I believe in. How do I understand the different parts of them? How do I understand their fear? How do I understand their protection?
How do I understand, even though I may not agree with it, how do I open them up to not be a one dimensional character, but a human who’s making decisions that you could actually then get in a conversation with, if that was the possibility, that you ever allowed that [00:48:00] possibility. Whether it make any change, I don’t know.
Sometimes change takes hundreds of years, but it’s, I think we’ve got more possibility when we acknowledge that people are more complex and more, they’re not, I, I don’t like them. I do like them. category that you put them in. Yeah.
Gissele: Yeah. And again, I think it goes back to how what we’ve conditioned is right or wrong, right?
Like, we don’t understand our interconnection, we don’t understand that. our wellness is interconnected with the wellness of other beings. What do you think the role of self-love and self-compassion is in, in being able to have love and compassion for others, especially our partners?
Peter: this is a journey I went on fundamentally.
Like, this for me, was the core that changed a lot. it, I first discovered something when I separated. I think I was about 16, seven years, 17 years with the, the mother of my two girls. And I remember thinking what went wrong i’s like, I wanted a, I don’t want another relationship. I wanted just one person to the end of my life.
That was what I wanted. Yeah. And [00:49:00] didn’t happen. It just was an absolute mess. And I remember I just studied,timeline therapy where you go along your timelines and you look at the, the, the injuries that you’ve had and you, you heal them. And I went along and I found all this anger and I thought, I’m not an angry person.
And I found anger and anger and anger and I was like, that’s weird. And the more I delved with inside the, the person I projected outside of who I believed I wanted to be inside was very different. It. And there came a point where I said to myself, do I love myself? And their voice says, no, you don’t. And I shocked myself from that ’cause I thought I was a loving person.
I tried to be. And my intention was to be a loving person. And I was doing my best to try and be nice in the world and, and help people and do what I could. And I was like, oh dear, I don’t have a great foundation here. And the journey began [00:50:00] and what that meant to find love within myself took quite a long time.
But when I did. And it was, I still catch myself. ’cause there’s certain, I was the insults to myself, which were horrendous. I remember, writing down all the insults. I said to myself, I’m stupid. I’m thick, I’m useless. I’m whatever it is. Or, and I was looked at him and I wrote them down on a piece of paper and I, I put them on my phone every time it came up, I put them down, I put ’em, I gathered them together and I saw them and I was like, oh my word.
If I got a person and said that to them, I would be taken to prison for abuse. And I do that to myself.
Gissele: Wow.
Peter: And it was a real realization of my own self violence. And I was like, this needs to stop. And so I just, mindfulness was really great. I did the, stress reduction, mindfulness. I can’t remember what it is.
I’m [00:51:00] terrible remembering names, but it’s an amazing, form of mindfulness where I just ev all day long. I was just tracking my emotional self and where I was and being present and catching the, the, the feelings. And I really got to learn my internal, structure. And I started putting compassion in there and kindness.
And when I found these parts, I didn’t push them away. I invited them in and got to know them and accepted them, and their self-acceptance for everything unconditionally. Even if I had thoughts that I do not agree with, I accept them as they’re okay. I just won’t attach them, but I just, even if I just invite them in, it’s like, oh, that thought, I don’t want to be part of my personality, but it’s there, so let’s have a look.
What’s going on here? And it, it just year after year after year, it got to a place where I was like, this vibration feels a lot better. And it may be a lifelong [00:52:00] journey because, and ‘ cause everything fluctuates and changes and moves and so there’s Yeah, constant,
Gissele: everything ebbs and flows. Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. But the general vibration was, was at a higher frequency than it was before.
And I was like, okay. And then I could see, you know, you’re saying externally, your mirror. I could see my relationship changing and what people were saying to me was changing, and it was a bit hard to take some of the compliments as well. I was like, Ooh, that’s another thing I’ve gotta lead. I can’t actually handle everyone saying these nice compliments, and that makes me feel uncomfortable back to the drawing board and untangle that stuff.
But for, for me personally, I felt that that was the foundation of me gaining a healthier relationship later and also not attacking or defending when it was getting, emotionally uncomfortable, that just being okay, like as I was with myself, with all my shadows and everything to be okay with somebody else’s [00:53:00] shadows.
So, and like I said, some days are better than others, but when it’s good, it really feels this wonderful connection. And, and that’s what I encourage people to do when we’re working is you’ve got the interconnection with the relationship and then you’ve got that internal loving compassion for yourself, which when it vibrates from the inside out just becomes a beacon, almost an attraction of, of bringing that energy towards yourself.
Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. Oh, I love that you said that. Number one, I love the fact that you said, you know, it’s, it’s an everyday journey, right? Like it ebbs and flows, right? Mm-hmm. Like we we’re not looking for perfection here. Everybody thinks, oh, I gotta be the Dalai Lama, I gotta be Nelson Mandalah. Or like, I got, you know what I mean?
I gotta be Jesus. No, you don’t. You can just,
Peter: yeah,
Gissele: just, just choose love. Yeah. Every day and every moment. And some days you’re gonna stumble and that’s okay. We don’t have to be perfect. Sorry, you were gonna say
Peter: No, I just got very excited for a moment. ’cause I think that what you said was so true. There [00:54:00] we’re not the Dalai Lama and we’re not Nelson and d the Dalai Lama, remember him saying, well, yeah, I get angry sometimes.
It just, and then it’s gone. And then, Nelson Mandela, I mean, he was a fighter. I mean, he, he was a, a resistance fighter. they will have their human struggles. And, they won’t be perfection either. And so sometimes when we use these icons of the, the image that we’re given of peace and compassion, the individual I am guessing, was complexed and challenged from day to day with what, and sometimes they were very spiritual and left in advertis.
They may have tantrums and not be as spiritual as they were another day, even if they’ve meditated on a hill for 25 years. I just, I just see it in the people that I’ve, I’ve come across. They’re like, the day changes, like the seasons, and there’s times when we’re a higher flow and we’re a lower one. Even if the, you’re not as low as maybe somebody [00:55:00] else who hasn’t done the work, you still have your own wave that you go through.
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a setup, right? Because like, think if we, when we expect, and this is just another way of people expecting perfection. oh, I gotta be as perfect as them. Right? not realizing that the purpose is for all of us to do it.
Yeah. Purpose is, we are all taking this journey. That’s the purpose. The purpose is to be more loving and compassionate to ourselves. And I found the same thing, exactly what you were talking about. The more love and compassion I have for myself, the more I don’t need other people to act differently. When I’m lacking in my own self-love and self-compassion, the more I try to, to force or navigate or, or struggle with other people’s behavior.
And it’s about a choice. Like what do I wanna feel and who do I wanna be every single day? Someday I stumble, other days I, I feel great, which then I can express myself the most lovingly. And so again, perfection need not apply. We’re all just [00:56:00] making a choice constantly. And that’s what I, I loved about your blurb, which is like it’s moment to moment and it’s continuing to choose to get curious, continuing to choose to be loving, continuing to choose.
And I think that is the path that can get us to creating a more loving world.
Peter: Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. And you, you reminded, I remember I saw the Dalai Lama speak once and mm-hmm. And the person in the audience asked them, I’m having difficulty in my relationship. What, what do you advise? And he said, well, let me find myself a partner, be with them for 20 years, have a few children, see their through their children.
And then I can tell you right now, I don’t know, and I thought. It was a really nice way of saying, yeah, I don’t have the experience. He said, I can teach you about compassion. That’s my, that’s my area. But to be honest, I haven’t been in that environment, so I will lack wisdom in there. [00:57:00] And I thought that was a very humble, approach to the question.
Gissele: Hmm. And my husband and I have had these conversations talking about like, there’s an element of easier to be the guru if you are in a monastery with, you know what I mean? Like, and, and you’re not in a relationship or have children or have many issues and all of those things that it’s harder to be in this square of society and not sitting in a cave potentially.
I mean, all of that has been helpful. All of that has helped our evolution.
Yeah.
And at the same time, like the Dalai Lama said. It’s not in his wheelhouse. He, he doesn’t know what it’s like to, to, to have children and have all of those stressors in every day and maybe go to a job or get laid off and all of those things.
Right? Like
Peter: yeah.
Gissele: It’s, it’s, it’s a very different thing. And practicing compassion in those different realms requires a different level of practice in awareness and mindfulness and all of [00:58:00] those things. and I think that’s why it’s important for us to realize that we know what the end goal might be, but our journey there is for like, it’s very individualized.
It’s sort of like we have, each of us have the seed within ourselves on what the path is.
Peter: Yeah.
Gissele: Like if we only just stop trying to follow other people’s paths, like I think we could be much more successful, I think.
Peter: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, that’s the challenge is that finding your own authenticity.
What, who am I? And it’s not always that easily accessible. But, finding clues to it and really investing in it means that you do become unique in your, in your, going back to frequency and how your, your energy creates. It’s, it’s not a trying to be, it becomes authentically it.
Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. For me, it’s been a journey of understanding that I’m not just this physical body and I’m just not this giba person.
Mm-hmm. That I’m bigger than that. That there’s more to me. And then [00:59:00] there is this, when the ego tries to drive the bus doesn’t always work out. But when I am, allow myself to have a more expanded view, more higher self view, things work out very beautifully and for the benefit of all. So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s really, it’s been quite the journey.
A, a beautiful, beautiful journey. Sometimes very challenging, but, I choose to love even the challenges and be in love with even the challenges. Which can feel tough.
Peter: Yeah, absolutely. ’cause unfortunately, births tend to be a little bit uncomfortable.
Gissele: Yeah.
Peter: And they are through that. Yeah. And it’s, maybe there is, I I think some people say you don’t need to go through these births.
I, I am not quite sure about that. It seems like when the change comes, you put the seatbelt on and you just accept what’s happening and it sometimes feel you get hit really hard and you just take the knock and you don’t just keep on going forward.
Gissele: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. So we’re coming to the end of the [01:00:00] show.
couple more questions. Yep. What is your definition of unconditional love or love? Some people don’t like the word unconditional, so what’s your definition of love?
Peter: There’s a few, actually. There’s a, there’s a sense of, what’s an, a kind of unconditional openness.
Gissele: Mm.
Peter: that it’s not narrow, it’s expansive.
Gissele: Mm. I like that.
Peter: And a sense that all the senses are curious. So curious what you hear, curious of what you see. like a child childlike curiosity to life.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Peter: So an expansive Yeah. Kind of expansive, open, love
Gissele: that
Peter: to the, to all the senses.
Gissele: I like that. so last question. Where can people find you? Where can they work with you? What do you wanna share with the audience?
Peter: Yeah. So, I am based on my online, so,www.theplayfulcouple.co uk. there’s some playful quizzes on there to do.
also if you want to work with me, just, I do a three [01:01:00] 30 minute call. Just have a chat and see if you would like to go on a journey, either individually or with, your partner and see how we find who you really are underneath all the, the how. And, and if you want to play, we’ll give you techniques to, to sort that out.
Gissele: Mm, sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, Peter, for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. Pleasure. This was an amazing conversation. It’s pleasure
Peter: being here. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank
Gissele: you very much. And thank you for joining us on another episode of the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele.
Have a wonderful day,