TRANSCRIPT
Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content.
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Gissele: Are you struggling with an interracial relationship that other people don’t accept, or have you survived or are struggling with intense and traumatic family and relationship challenges, or if you’re just someone who has the courage to follow your dreams against all odds. Today, our guest is Annie Waxman, author of Accidental Rebel: My Story of Interracial Love and Loss.
Gissele: In the late 1960s, she was a young, white, and privileged high school cheerleader who accidentally fell in love with James, the Black star basketball player. This was a time of deep racial tension in the US, and especially in a small town in Kentucky where she lived.
Gissele: [00:01:00] Accidental Rebel is a memoir of the journey of their secret relationship, which, when dramatically discovered , changed her life, her family’s life, and the small Kentucky town forever . Please join me in welcoming Annie Waxman. Hi, Annie.
Annie: Hi there. Thank you for having me.
Gissele: Oh, thank you very much for being on the show.
Gissele: we’re talking about race relations. you would’ve thought that it was the 1960s, but I think people still struggle with those relationships. People still struggle with accepting different races, as we see with what’s happening in the US, and so I think this conversation continues to be unfortunately timely.
Gissele: I was wondering if you could, tell the audience a little bit about how you fell in love with a basketball player and how that impacted your family.
Annie: Okay. the story is about, race, shame that I was told that I was, giving towards the family and the [00:02:00] town.
Annie: And forgiveness. I think forgiveness is also what the story is about. And, trauma, young trauma. I was, a young girl, very popular in high school, and, I did something that, my parents did not agree with. I was with a Black guy, and,they did not know that I was with him. I was sneaking around, uh, initially, and then many years later, up in, well into my 20s, I was still sneaking around, from my family and from them knowing what was going on I never was raised to talk poorly about people or to make any derogatory comments about anyone.
Annie: so it was kind of shocking, when my father and my mother, reacted the way they did when [00:03:00] I was caught, really caught, with this Black guy. we had, gone in a car. I used to meet him in the cemetery,
Annie: He would run through the back, and I would drive through the cemetery, and that’s how we would start meeting.
Annie: rumors were starting to surface that I was seeing the basketball player. and I didn’t even tell my best friend about it, who was also a cheerleader. So that indicates that I knew that probably it was gonna be problematic for a lot of people So, my father, who was quite powerful and very well-known in the state, had
Annie: Police cars following me. Mm-hmm. And, and they followed me to that area of town. and we had gone into a house there, and, we [00:04:00] were together. It was kinda the first time we’d been able to be together in actually a real location. though we do, did go down to an old stone church that was way out in the country at times and meet there.
Annie: so my father was knocking at the door, and, um, I told James to run, because everybody was saying, “Your father’s out there,” you know. “I don’t know, he looks crazy.” And so long story short, I told James to run. He ran out the back door, and I gathered myself calmly and went and opened the door, and my father, threw me out of the house down the stairs, the concrete stairs.
Annie: There must have been about 10 of them. Mm-hmm. And at that time, my father, who unfortunately was a [00:05:00] philanderer a bit, he and his girlfriend were with him, and she spit on me. And my father got me in the car and drove me home, where we lived in a very nice subdivision in that small town. And- Pulled me out of the car and said, “Tell your mother you’ve been with a,” the N-word, uh, which was used, you know, back then.
Annie: So it, this is kind of the journey that I was on. I was 16, and a lot happened to me that evening, July 26th, 1969. And every year I think about that day and what happened to me, and that was 57 years ago. So I felt it was important to write this book and [00:06:00] get my story out there, and maybe it might, um, show some other interracial couples what other couples went through to maybe make it a little bit easier for them, though I’m not sure it’s really that easy at all still.
Gissele: I was thinking about what you said in terms of, like my parents hadn’t really said anything until I was dating someone, right? Yes. And so I was thinking people don’t believe that they’re racist until, until somebody wants to join the family of maybe a different race and then that really kind of shows you how you really feel, right?
Annie: Exactly.
Gissele: Um, did, did James experience the same thing with his family in terms of him dating somebody white?
Annie: Uh, no. now my father had out that he was gonna kill him. Oh, wow. So he hid out for, for quite a while. but his family did not have a problem with it As far as I can [00:07:00] really remember, I think that there were other, people in the Black community, older people- Mm-hmm
Annie: that had a problem with it and thought that, you know, um, we should stick with our own kind, which was the term used. Mm-hmm. but, not like what my parents did. And that’s just a very small slice of the story of what happened to me. Um, and I don’t really know how far you want me to go with it
Gissele: It’s as far as you wanna go.
Gissele: I mean, it must have been really difficult for you to continue the relationship, ’cause obviously you continued it ’cause you ended up getting married. so take me to the next stage in terms of, what made you wanna continue forward? Was it your love? Was it just the need to prove everyone right, or was it maybe a little bit of both?
Annie: It was a little bit of both, yes. You know, we’ll show you. Mm-hmm. You think we went through all of [00:08:00] that and it’s gonna end? And really the problem with that is that then I didn’t really, and he didn’t either, we didn’t really realize we weren’t really good partners together.
Gissele: Mm, ’cause you were 16.
Annie: I was 16.
Gissele: Yeah. that’s young. Yeah …
Annie: we forged on we were together about … we were, 30 when we, when we split up. it was very traumatic time. I had been put in a psychiatric ward for a week my father He shot at me with a gun.
Annie: Oh. And I was being choked. And, uh, then, the whole town was coming together and coming to the house and telling me I’d shamed the family and shamed everyone, and my body was supposed to have been at the [00:09:00] funeral home. a small town, rumors can swirl, and- Mm-hmm … that’s really what was happening.
Annie: But I was pretty popular. and he was as well. Uh, but not on the same outgoing, let’s say, level, you know?
Gissele: Yeah,
Gissele: I’m very sorry that you had to go through that. That must have been so difficult to feel like everyone’s against you, right? You were only 16. You were only following your heart, and had people not judged, it probably would have evolved as it would have had, right?
Gissele: But people’s fears and their prejudices are, always make things worse. Exactly … Did you end up staying in Kentucky or did you end up going somewhere else- No … just because it was so- No … difficult, yeah?
Annie: No, I did not end up staying. I was sent away to a Catholic boarding school for bad girls- Oh
Annie: my senior year in high school. and unfortunately he had to stay. He could not leave. He was not of wealth or, or anything. [00:10:00] so he had to endure staying in the town. so I’m, have a lot of empathy for what he went through- Yeah … ending up with this white girl, with this, the dad and this, you know, to this day I have a lot of empathy for him.
Gissele: so when you were sent to that home for girls-was it for your last year- Year … of high school? And then- My senior
Annie: year in
Gissele: high school. So then were you able to come home, and then
Annie: I, then I came home. I, and I tried to, go away to college somewhere else.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: And I didn’t get in, so I had to be in Kentucky.
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: Uh, but I, I got into the school furthest away from home.
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: so I was happy about that. I kinda hated my parents at that time.
Annie: for what they did to me really.
Gissele: How was your ex-husband’s family? did you spend any time with them? Were you-
Annie: I only met [00:11:00] them once.
Gissele: Even though
Annie: you were married for a while? But you have to understand that we were secretive until- Yeah … we got married, and, um, and we were 26 years old.
Annie: So my family didn’t know. We moved away. we were hiding out in an apartment in a way that, it was really- Wow.
Gissele: That must have been tough, yeah.
Annie: It was, um, and that’s when it, I got to the point where I can’t do this anymore. The secrecy was affecting me, and I just could not do it anymore.
Annie: And so I just one day just told my parents I was with him.
Gissele: Hmm. I
Annie: didn’t- Couldn’t hide … so how long were
Gissele: you married for?
Annie: two years, and we lived together- we lived together 10 or 11 years.
Gissele: Oh, okay. And you weren’t anywhere near his family. You moved away somewhere else ’cause you couldn’t
Annie: be in the town.
Annie: Yeah, we moved away because his family [00:12:00] lived in the small town. Um, and-
Gissele: Hmm …
Annie: it, yeah, it’s pretty, pretty bizarre, uh, how it all happens. But, you know, I just needed to release all of this from my past. Hmm. I need to let it go.
Gissele: did James ever talk about how difficult it must have been for him to stay behind? Uh, the reason why I ask that is because- That must have caused a lot of friction in your relationship.
Gissele: It’s not like you could both freely be able to be yourselves. That’s a lot of pressure to put in a relationship, especially a young relationship.
Annie: Exactly. You know what? he was pretty closed down.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: and I think that he dealt with his anger of the situation by, drinking too much.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: And, I think really that’s where some of his alcoholism stemmed [00:13:00] from. I’m not saying he’s like that now.
Gissele: Yeah.
Annie: But, ’cause we all change.
Gissele: Of course.
Annie: he was never very communicative. When we left Kentucky, when we were 24, even moving, to California, he did not ever really feel comfortable holding my hand or being close with me out in public.
Annie: It was just, uh, something that I don’t think he could ever get over. I think he was, had some issues with his Blackness being with me, that I didn’t even see at the time. But having written the book and looked back on the years, I really feel that, I feel sorry for him really that he had to endure- Mm
Annie: uh, that we both had to endure what we did.
Gissele: Yeah, it’s so difficult. I [00:14:00] have friends who are LGBTQ, and my friend can’t go with her partner to some countries. They will get hurt if they’re holding hands walking down the street.
Gissele: Exactly. what kind of fear must be going through you that you’re so bothered by love? It doesn’t matter. Exactly. have you ever been able to have a conversation with family members now that are able to look in retrospect back or do they still hold some of the same beliefs ?
Annie: Well, my parents have passed, and that’s when I wrote the book. I did not wanna write the book while they were alive.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Fair.
Annie: Oh, fair. Uh, yeah. I didn’t wanna do that. believe it or not, no one really ever said anything about what happened that day-
Gissele: Wow …
Annie: except my dad when I was in my 50s and I was divorced, looked at me and he said, “You know, that never shoulda happened, that day.”
Annie: And I looked at him and I was shocked. No. And I said, [00:15:00] “No, you’re right. It shouldn’t have.” And that’s the only thing that was ever said about that. in the ’50s and ’60s we were brought up, like, there was a code. You don’t say what’s going on in your family. Mm-hmm. You know, what will the neighbors think?
Annie: It was-
Gissele: Yeah …
Annie: truly, um, and they were a product of that, and- Mm-hmm … I just, I forgave them. I just, for me, it was forgiveness for them because I know they regretted it. and this is, is such a small portion of the very traumatic things that happened that evening, uh, with both my parents and with me.
Annie: But I feel like they just, they just kinda did the best they could, and they were in this … My mother was European. She was [00:16:00] brought over from the war as a war bride in World War II. My dad was a pilot. And so it was like it was almost drawing attention to herself as well- Mm … ’cause she was trying to fit into this small community.
Annie: And then so I go and do this, and then there’s focus on her as well as, as the family. And it was, it was a different time. I wish it was a little more different, than we see these days. But, yeah. my sisters have not been comfortable with me with this book. they don’t like speaking ill of the dead is what the comment was.
Annie: but my parents and I were close in the end, and, and I’ve have forgiveness for them. that’s really what I choose to remember. but [00:17:00] it happened. Mm. And I’m sorry that I had to speak about that, about them, but my sisters are not comfortable with any of this and have not read the book.
Gissele: Hm.
Annie: And we are very close. It’s not something we talk about.
Gissele: Yeah. It’s interesting how that happens, right? We tend to- censor ourselves, but it actually prevents us from really being truly close. And how, in speaking about those instances, you’re not speaking ill of the dead, you’re sharing your story.
Gissele: Exactly. Now, your parents’ perspective of that story might have been different. Yes. It might have been through their lens. It- Yes … doesn’t mean that you are saying something negative, but we have that viewpoint that the kindest thing to do is to just censor ourselves or mute ourselves. But that doesn’t- Let it
Annie: lie.
Gissele: Yeah. Just let it lie. But that’s not compassionate to ourselves.
Annie: not what I could do.
Gissele: Yeah.
Annie: I’ve been in therapy 16 years. [00:18:00] Yeah. This trauma that I went through has affected every decision I’ve ever made in my life.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Annie: Every decision. Mm-hmm. Except for now.
Gissele: Yeah. so I wanna go back to, you get married, right? You’re together for a number of years. Obviously, there’s alcoholism. Um-
Annie: Infidelity from him.
Gissele: Oh, okay. it must have been difficult to make the decision to separate given how hard you worked to be together, right? Can you walk me a little bit through that process of having to make the decision to let him go without feeling like, well, they won.
Gissele: They were right.
Annie: Yes. Yeah, boy, did not wanna do that. Mm-hmm. Did not wanna prove that they were right- Mm-hmm … so to speak.
Gissele: Yeah.
Annie: we got married, and I don’t think he really wanted to get [00:19:00] married. I think we were kind of, well, okay, now we need to get married to finish this. Mm-hmm. And w- he was not a good communicator.
Annie: Mm-hmm. So he was pretty shut down. So there was never really an eas- after all those years together and living together, he was never really a great communicator. So when it happened that my father, believe it or not, said that he would pay for the wedding. Oh. Now, this is years later, years later.
Gissele: Yeah. Wow.
Annie: That’s why I’m saying people can change.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. That’s important.
Annie: People, if you want to change, you can change.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: So he ultimately got us on this rollercoaster of getting married. Okay, well now you gotta get married. And I think that kinda made him feel better to know [00:20:00] that- Mm-hmm … you know, okay, well I did this, but now they’re getting married, we can let it all lie and it’s over.
Annie: And you know what? Mm-hmm. He was exactly like my father. I married my father. He was an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. he was a mean alcoholic, and he was- Mm-hmm … not very communicative. My father was working all the time. He was never home. I mean, so, um, I married my father, and I realized after I did that, I knew when I was standing there at the altar, I knew that this is not gonna work, but we had to finish it to move forward.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s so interesting that, we tend to be attracted to people like our parents, and the theory behind that is in order for us to address our trauma.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: Like sometimes if we can’t address it with our parents, we’ll address it with our partners.
Annie: exactly. [00:21:00] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Annie: Yeah.
Gissele: Um, so I wanna talk a little bit about forgiveness, because it’s very, very important. What got you to the point that you were able to forgive your parents and also your partner with whom you divorced?
Annie: You know what? I was raised by a European mother-
Gissele: Mm …
Annie: in a small town. Manners, treat people kindly. I mean, it just, it was ingrained in me, and I did not want what happened to me and I guess at that time that I felt I had brought to the family and broken up the family, so to speak. Mm-hmm. I didn’t want to be the cause of that.
Annie: So I, myself, okay, when you go through something as traumatic as that, you either move forward and become stronger, or you [00:22:00] fall within yourself. And so I wasn’t made of that stock, and I got stronger, and I just said, “I have to keep the family together. We have to be together.” And so I just went through years.
Annie: I’d had not had therapy. I just ignored it. I, often probably drank and smoked pot to deal with some of the trauma. You know- Mm-hmm … anything to really not dig in there. And so I forgave everybody,and I think it’s okay, and I feel good that I did that. But I’ve had a lot of therapy.
Gissele: Yeah.
Gissele: Therapy’s very good.
Annie: and it’s gotten me to where I am today, and it’s gotten me to the point where I could write this book.
Gissele: Yeah. as you were going through therapy, were there ever any parts where [00:23:00] you felt like you had to forgive yourself?
Annie: Uh, yes. Yes
Gissele: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Annie: let me see if I can think of what that was. I wasn’t really an activist, you know, when I was young. I didn’t really plan to be an, a rebel- Hmm … so to speak. And so it was truly accidental, you know- Hmm … forging forward with this, um, mantra, you know, interracial couples can make it, and we can all be together, and it’ll work out.
Annie: So I think that I decided that it was okay for me to forgive myself for kinda creating a possibly unhealthy situation with him. [00:24:00]
Gissele: Yeah.
Annie: I was a part of how unhealthy it was. I’m not throwing it all on him. Mm-hmm. I had a lot to do with that too. it was like in Kentucky, it was like 1967 before they even took interracial marriages off the books of being illegal.
Annie: And this was- Mm … ’69 when this happened to me. I this was, very close to when I was going through this, that there were still things like that on the books. And there was that, case with, Virginia versus Loving, and it was a white man and a Black woman who- Mm … had gotten married and were taken out of their homes and put in jail because they had an interracial marriage, and that’s what Loving versus Virginia was, and that was in 1967.
Gissele: Oh, wow. S-
Annie: so when you think back about what was [00:25:00] really going on just around that time that I was doing this, you can kinda think about, the South and what people were really thinking.
Gissele: Yeah, of
Annie: course. And what my family was thinking.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they must have felt a lot of pressure in terms of the law- Yes
Gissele: which obviously, made it difficult. and it’s so interesting when you think about the situation now. You know, we went from legally overt racism to covert racism and back to overt again.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: Right? It seems to me like we’re back to overt, right? Yes. I’m curious as to your thoughts about what’s happening in America right now with all the ICE raids, and
Gissele: if you have seen some shifting in terms of the racism you experienced, Has it gone underground, or does it just look different?
Annie: Well, you know, I’m in California, which is- Mm-hmm … a wonderful state and a [00:26:00] Democratic state. And, so we don’t see as much here, but I do know in Kentucky, ’cause I still have my best friend that lives there and I do still have relatives there, that have never said one word to me about what happened to me.
Annie: Mm-hmm. It’s like it never happened. I think that with, with race, I think right now it’s gotten a little worse. I think there’s less tolerance for people that are different. I know in this state or people that we associate with wherever they are, are like-minded like we are-
Gissele: Yeah …
Annie: there’s a lot of hate going on right now.
Gissele: Yeah. Which you would have figured since the 1960 we would have learned, right? Just, it just went underground, right?
Gissele: And this is why I think this conversation is so important. you dared to share your own story [00:27:00] even though it made people uncomfortable. Now, granted, I mean, I can totally understand you wanting to protect your parents to some extent, right?
Gissele: but at some point you do have to own your story because if you don’t share those stories, then we can’t look at ourselves as a humanity, and that’s the thing. People don’t wanna do that. They’re like, “Let it lie. Don’t say anything. Hushity hush.” Yeah. And the reason being is then you can’t confront the truth.
Gissele: You can’t be uncomfortable, and then you can’t be forced to change. And the fact that since the 1960s we’re still facing racism, and all these other isms in a very different way, but still they’re there. Yes. I think it’s- It’s disheartening. And at the same time, it’s a call to change. It forces us to change
Annie: Exactly.
Annie: it’s pretty disturbing. Exactly.
Gissele: Yeah. And but I think the challenge is we have to look at ourselves.
Annie: I agree.
Gissele: And that’s probably the [00:28:00] most difficult part of it, right? Like you were talking about, your family. You said that there’s no vocalizing of any racism, right?
Gissele: We like everyone. Yeah. Until there could be somebody who joined your family of a different race, and then all of a sudden everything that you said you believe in goes to the crapper. Yeah. And I think that is what we’re seeing today with those raids, right?
Gissele: You see a lot of what I call lateral violence.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: Other people of the same ethnicity signing up to be in ICE, right? to deport other people of their same color. and that’s like, wow. They’re
Annie: also being lured financially.
Gissele: True. True. Yeah.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: True.
Annie: They’re being lured financially- Yes
Annie: as well.
Gissele: and that is a very, very common strategy. I was born in Peru.
Annie: Oh,
Gissele: uh-huh. And I came to Canada when I was 10.
Annie: Uh-huh.
Gissele: And in Peru, the corruption was more overt,
Gissele: And all these politicians would go to the poorest parts and they would go and [00:29:00] say, “You know what? We’re gonna feed you. Give me your vote.” And then every year, without fail, it was the same thing, and then they would vote for them, and then the people would not do anything, right?
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: And so it’s interesting how we’ve created this world where people are oppressed economically. Yes. Then the incentive is economic so that you can- Yes … then oppress your brother.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: Which is-
Annie: Very common in Latin America. My son actually lives in Latin America. Mm-hmm. And so, yes, it’s, it’s-
Gissele: Yeah …
Annie: very common, yeah.
Gissele: And you know what? The other interesting thing, and then I wanna go back to your story.
Annie: Yeah.
Gissele: The other interesting thing too is one of the biggest things that I hear from the Hispanic community about why they are so anti- these other Democratic politicians is that they’re so afraid of socialism.
Gissele: I know we’ve had this conversation before, but the truth of the matter is, when I was in South America, the governments tried to pass off communism as socialism. And so what would [00:30:00] happen was that the governments would take all of the resources, and then they would- sparse it out so nobody had.
Gissele: It was like people would have to do line-ups for food. They had to do line-ups for resources. you would have, like lights out and all of these other things. So people associate that with socialism.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: And they think that’s socialism, but what really asking for is a democratic socialism, which is no one gets left behind. Exactly. We share the resources. Exactly. That doesn’t mean the resources are gonna be taken by the government as it was in Latin America. The-
Annie: Exactly …
Gissele: people that were enjoying all the resources was the government.
Annie: Right. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Gissele: and so people are afraid of socialism, but that was not socialism.
Gissele: It was sold as socialism.
Annie: Well, I think a lot of the Hispanic community, certainly,I know quite a few that voted for Trump that were men that would not vote for a woman ever.
Gissele: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Annie: Ever. [00:31:00]
Gissele: Fair.
Annie: Now, it’s interesting, though, Mexico has a female president.
Gissele: Mm-hmm. Uh,
Annie: but they would not vote for a woman, and some of the women felt that, that they would be better off. And so now everybody regrets it. Everyone I’ve talked to has said And we’re like, “Didn’t you listen to what the words were from this person?” So here we are.
Gissele: And I think that’s where our own isms come up, right?
Gissele: when we immigrated to Canada we came quote unquote, “The right way.” Which means, we paid $20,000, we had all our medicals- Right … and everything in order to come to Canada. We had to have skills. And so-
Annie: Yeah …
Gissele: we came the right way. And then there’s pe- well, that came in different ways, right?
Gissele: so there was refugee people that came and got, a whole bunch of things for free. And my parents, I think to some extent resented that because they fought so hard. Yes. And then you’ve got [00:32:00] people … we never knew anybody, but you got a lot of people in the US that crossed the border illegally.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: And so the desire to punish, the desire to say, “Well, I came the right way. You should- Yes … have come the right way therefore,” but not taking into consideration that they might not have had the resources- Right … or the way-
Annie: So true … to be
Gissele: there.
Annie: That’s what’s- Yeah … happening here. Other people have said that, “Well, we came the right way.”
Gissele: Yes. “
Annie: So they’re gonna come in and take our jobs,”
Gissele: Yeah. it’s that zero sum game- Yeah … that we’ve been taught. It’s that- Yeah … that everything is limited. You know, like even … And if you think about … I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the rhetoric of white supremacy.
Annie: Oh, yes.
Gissele: Really interesting.
Gissele: The rhetoric of white supremacy is that lack. So even though white men right now run the world, there’s always we’re gonna be the lesser race. We’re gonna lack. There’s not enough for us. All these people are taking our jobs. Right, right. And what is obviously being seen [00:33:00] in the US is that nobody wants those jobs.
Annie: How ridiculous …
Gissele: it’s this, it’s that rhetoric of there’s not enough. Even though white people are the ones who have had the most power.
Annie: Exactly.
Gissele: So it’s this fear of not enough, this fear of lack, the fear of the other that has perpetuated and has made our world worse.
Annie: Yeah.
Gissele: Not better. Worse. Not
Annie: better. Right.
Gissele: Not better. Absolutely not. Not better.
Annie: No. No. Not better.
Gissele: It’s, it’s, it’s crazy. It is, it’s crazy. Yeah, we’re
Annie: pretty messed up here right now.
Gissele: Yeah. But- my hope is that as your book Accidental Rebel, and I wanna get back to it, it’s showing who we’ve been?
Gissele: Is that showing the kinds of things that we’d allowed? Because, in our family there is that same thing of Cosa Nostra, right? We don’t tell anybody else, but that’s lonely and isolating and oppressive, right?
Annie: Exactly.
Gissele: so being able to share your story is really [00:34:00] important.
Gissele: so are you in good terms with your ex-husband now, or you’re better terms?
Annie: I have not seen him since 1980.
Gissele: Oh, okay. So it’s been a while, yeah. Yeah.
Annie: Yeah. And he does live only 11 miles from me.
Gissele: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Annie: But, you know, LA’s so huge.
Gissele: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Annie: Yes.
Gissele: No.
Annie: Yeah. Though I do know, a little bit about him now.
Annie: I think he’s changed. I’ve been told.
Gissele: Throughout this journey, there must’ve been an element of you that was like, “F you, I’m gonna do this,” because you said. So there’s a level of, you were talking about the rebel, right?
Gissele: Yes. The desire to do and to follow your heart and to make decisions for your own, which can be isolating sometimes, right? Because people are so desperate to belong, they’ll go with the- Yeah … current against themselves.
Annie: Yeah.
Gissele: What do you feel- led you to keep going in the face of that, all of that resistance?
Gissele: and has that [00:35:00] helped you in other areas?
Annie: You know, I became a little hard.
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: And brazen-
Gissele: Mm …
Annie: also. and I’m wondering if somehow it fed me a little bit.
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: I think on some level I was getting back at my dad for never really being there and always- drinking and not a- not accessible.
Annie: And I, so I just really became very brazen. I did things, uh, that I think about now that scare me, you know, that I can’t believe I did that. But it just, it’s on some level it empowered me-
Gissele: Mm …
Annie: uh, to move forward without a care. Yeah. I really feel I was doing [00:36:00] that in college.
Annie: You know, I was hitchhiking and to other states. Mm. And I mean, I was not that girl when I was growing up.
Gissele: Oh, wow.
Annie: Not that girl. Just, sweet, kind, never did anything that my parents would react to. I mean, it was spare the rod, spoil the child then. we were whipped- Mm-hmm … and-
Gissele: Yeah
Annie: I became a real rebel, kind of the- Mm … black sheep of the family, so to speak. Which my, actually my father was in his family.
Gissele: Mm. Interesting.
Annie: Yes. Mm. Yes. Yeah.
Gissele: But there’s an element of freedom, is there not? Like, a small element of freedom in the sense that sometimes you can get so trapped with what people think you should do or, you know, fit in this box and do what everybody is doing.
Gissele: Uh-huh. there might be an element of freedom in going against the current and doing what it is that you would want to do instead. Has it served you [00:37:00] in other areas of your life, or has it been a hindrance?
Annie: Um, well, my husband now, calls me and my sisters the hard-ass sisters.
Annie: Because we had– this happened with me that affected them.
Gissele: Yeah.
Annie: And, we grew up, uh, with an alcoholic parent that eventually- was not there. But still, I do think it has benefited me actually. Mm-hmm. Um, I’m considered pretty strong. I am strong. I’m outspoken.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: Um, and I react to comments that are made that I think are not appropriate or are mean-spirited But I’m not sure I would’ve been that girl if this, if that didn’t happen to me, in 1969. but I think it [00:38:00] actually has served me well and made me, uh, the person I am today, and I actually like who I am.
Gissele: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Annie: I’m kinda like, “Well done, Annie. You got through. ” yeah. You made it. You wrote a book. You told your story. And now I kinda feel like it was such a cathartic experience, I can just … I’ve been able to kinda just go, “Ah,” you know, “Okay.”
Gissele: So the writing of the book helped you sort of unload a lot of that, the trauma- Oh
Gissele: that you experienced, yeah.
Annie: Yes. Yes. Yes, it did.
Gissele: what is the message that is, that you’re trying to communicate?
Annie: I think it’s just an important slice of history- Yeah
Annie: this story. if an interracial relationship or anyone that just wants to know anything about the past with race,
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: [00:39:00] And I I’ve been told it’s a really worthwhile read.
Gissele: Mm.
Annie: And, It’s also an Audible. Yes. Yeah.
Gissele: And it can be found on amazon.com?
Annie: Yes. Yeah It can be found on Amazon in hardback, paperback, Kindle- Mm … and Audible. Yes.
Gissele: Do you have a website?
Annie: Wow. You know, someone else asked me that. You know- … I’m just an old chick
Annie: That wrote a book.
Gissele: Awesome.
Annie: You can find it through all
Gissele: the major, all the major publishers then.
Annie: Yes, Barnes & Noble- Wonderful …
Gissele: last question, what’s your definition of self-love?
Annie: Okay, self-love.
Annie: I think it’s knowing yourself is self-love. I was thinking about this. accepting yourself is self-love, and continuing to work on [00:40:00] yourself-
Gissele: Hmm. Mm-hmm …
Annie: is self-love.
Gissele: Mm-hmm.
Annie: Yeah. To be a better human in this crazy world we’re in now-
Gissele: Yeah …
Annie: with compassion and care for our fellow man.
Gissele: Yeah
Annie: that’s what I think. Yeah.
Gissele: thank you for sharing your story, for that little piece of history, and for the mirror that your story is holding of how much we have changed and at the same time haven’t changed. And the hope is that we’re able to look at ourselves not with rejection, but with compassion and say, “You know what?
Gissele: That’s who we’ve been, but I’m not choosing that anymore. I’m willing to change. And I can change not by hating myself, by having compassion for who I’ve been and, you know, who I choose to be.” So- Absolutely … so thank you, Annie, so much for coming to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele,