TRANSCRIPT
Gissele overdub: [00:00:00]
Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about forgiving one’s enemy.
CARSA, Christian Action for Reconciliation and Social Assistance Organization, is doing some incredible work. They’re bringing together victims and oppressors for conversation. Carsa Ministries serves communities in supporting their journey towards healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, and sustainable holistic development.
Please join me in welcoming Carsa Ministries Executive Director, Christophe Mbonyingabo did I say it right?
Christophe: It
Gissele overdub: was. Welcome, Christophe. Welcome to the show. Thank you.
Christophe: Thank you very much. I’m glad to be with you today.
Gissele overdub: Yes, I am so excited to speak with you [00:01:00] because I believe that the work that you’re doing is so, so important.
Right now the world, It just seems so divided whether it be a, a long political divisions or among like this, even people, people canceling one another. So I think right now organizations that are working to bring people together, I think matter so greatly. Can you tell us a little bit about how this organization got started?
Christophe: Thank you very much. CARSA itself is a Rwandan based organization that started just 10 years after the genocide against the Tutsi means 2000 and close to 2004. That’s when we got registered by the government of Rwanda and CARSA started as a local grassroots initiative to try to restore the brokenness.
That has resulted from the genocide but alsopeople have to remember that the genocide did not start [00:02:00] in 1994 and the genocide did not end in 1994 because prior to 1994, there had been a long. era of division, you know, hatred and ideology that’s led to the 1994 genocide,
It was so huge consequences as a result of the genocide that’s needed to be addressed from various aspects. To try to contribute to see if forgiveness, reconciliation, restoration was possible. So that’s how CARSA gets started. And since then, about 20 years now, we’ve been, you know, trying to do that mission, which is very difficult, but exciting.
Gissele overdub: What you said is so critical because it didn’t start straight into genocide. It started with division and separation and the division between these two groups and seeing each other as enemies and not as brothers and sisters. And then that contributed too. So I think this is an important lesson for people to understand that it’s not [00:03:00] just about minor conflict.
It’s about this othering that results in then greater separation and greater conflict. And then you kind of have this division and genocide between these groups, right?
Christophe: Sure. You know, you know sometimes when people learn about the genocide that took place in Rwanda and they learned how within a hundred days, a million people were killed and killed by their neighbors, their friends, the people they knew.
If you do numbers, it was not what was happening, but if you tried to do numbers, it’s as if every second. Yeah. Six people were being killed. So people don’t have their mind around us. It’s very difficult to even understand how that can be possible. And remember it was a brutal killings because it was done using traditional weapons.
So people ask questions, how can this happen? Explain, but they tend to [00:04:00] forget that’s actually what happened as the killing of the genocide was a result of decades of brainwashing, hatred, division, and all of that. That’s why when you go through and try to understand the 10 stages of the genocide, then you understand better.
It doesn’t come just one day, one year. It’s, it’s a long journey. And, and that, that’s, that’s the same issue happening today in different parts of the world.
Gissele overdub: Yeah. And this is why it’s so important to learn from Rwanda and to learn from the work that you’re doing so that people understand that it’s not just about this division.
It’s not just about like this, like what they consider minor conflict is that it starts to separate us from each other. And then we see each other as enemies. And like you said, people turn like neighbors, friends. So the work that you’re doing is, is. Bringing together individuals, especially like what they call victim and what they call perpetrators together.
And, and that’s incredible to be able to [00:05:00] do that, especially after the genocide. What steps do you take individuals towards this sort of extraordinary journey?
Christophe: Yes you know, generally, when we talk about forgiveness, it is a very difficult concept to apply. And that’s generally you think of when, you know, I always give this example for married couples.
When wife and husband are well together, they love each other, called each other beautiful names, you know, but when there is something happening between them, then you understand how forgiving it’s very difficult to apply. Why? First of all, because it doesn’t come easily from the human nature. When we have experienced any sort of harm, abuse, whatever we tend, our, the first tendency is to wish to revenge ourselves.
But also you think from the, you know, [00:06:00] offender, the quick answer is to deny is to justify. And so now we are talking not just a minor issue. We are talking about the context where genocide survivors had lost their family members. And their children, spouses, siblings, parents, and now these people have been killed, not by strangers, but by neighbors, by friend, by in laws, by people they hoped that they would support them.
It means there’s not only the killings that has took place, but also there’s a sort of like it’s sort of like. Feeling that you’ve been disappointed in a sense, but also betrayed because these were the friends , you hope they’ve gone to support. So now when we talk about post genocide forgiveness, people need first to understand that concept and background.
So the steps that we [00:07:00] take people through at CARSA. We always start with a conversation, which is structured into what we call trauma healing workshop, and we start by explaining the participant genocide survivors for them to understand the need to move towards their individual their personal their inner healing, first of all, so we don’t quickly talk about forgiveness.
Also, then we get to the level where we start talking about forgiveness as one of the steps to what complete individual healing. And so when we talk about forgiveness, first of all, we, we make the participant, the survivors to understand what is forgiveness and what forgiveness is not.
Gissele overdub: Can you share what, what, what it is not ? Yes. What is, what is forgiveness? Not
Christophe: forgiveness is not forgetting. That’s first of all, [00:08:00] forgiveness. Does it not necessarily means reconciliation? Because when you talk about forgiveness, people say, do you want me to meet the other person? Do you want me to talk to the other person?
No. But thirdly, forgiveness doesn’t mean necessarily you ignore justice if it needs to happen. So when they understand those, those three definition of what forgiveness is not, it’s not forgetting. It doesn’t take away justice, but also it’s not necessarily reconciliation. Then people can listen. The second step it’s when we start explaining to them the benefit of forgiveness towards themselves.
Forgiveness benefits the victim before it benefits the offender or the perpetrator. And the third step is when we explain the burden of unforgiveness, you know, forgiveness is a very difficult concept. As I said earlier, [00:09:00] it’s very costly to forgive, but unforgiveness cost more at the end.
So when these people have understood the benefit, when they have understood the cost of unforgiveness to themselves, it’s like, you know, unforgiveness, it’s like you are locked in the room and you’ve got the key to make yourself get out. No one can do that. And then you choose to lock yourself in the room, thinking that’s the one who have locked you in the room is going to suffer.
Gissele overdub: That’s true. Yeah. I can ask a question. How do you know if you’ve truly forgiven? there may be times when you think, oh, I’ve forgiven, but then maybe something comes up. I don’t know if you can answer that, but just curious.
Christophe: You know, we have a program where we take genocide survivors and genocide perpetrators who are on the journey of reconciliation to speak to young people in schools.
And [00:10:00] then, in one conference, we call them peace conferences, a young student asked to a genocide victim who had shared the story, how he had forgiven the perpetrator, had killed the mother, they were all together and asked, ask it. What will happen to you today if this man, the perpetrator, whom you say were forgiven after killing your mother, if he does something today to you, what are you going to do again?
He said, the answer was, I have forgiven him the difficult crime. Why can’t I forgive him, you know, from the minor crime or whatever you do to me today. So, when, how do you know that you are forgiven? First of all, it’s when you remember with less bitterness. Then you know you are on the journey of forgiveness.
Secondly, it’s when you remember, but you don’t wish bad to the offender. [00:11:00] You don’t wish to revenge. You don’t wish to see the same thing happening to you to have to happen to the, to the, to the offender. Then you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness. It’s, it’s when, when you remember your experience or your experiences, but you are able to share that As an experience, but with, with less body, with less, you know, width emotionally and psychologically, then, you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness, but finally it’s when you think about the offender, the perpetrator, and it doesn’t come with the mess and the combination of the crime.
It’s when anyone, in other words, it’s when you are able to separate the crime and the perpetrator.
Gissele overdub: Oof. That is so, so powerful. Yeah. I think, yeah. [00:12:00] I really resonate with what you said. Yeah. Your organization, you mentioned the peacekeeping piece has four major pillars. It has trauma and recovery and reconciliation, peace building, economic development, And Youth Leadership, when you take it all together, that’s really well thought out because it’s not just about reconciliation.
You’re really thinking about why oppression happens. Like why do genocides happen? Why do people, why are they more apt to hurt each other? Why are each of those pillars important?
Christophe: Yeah, thank you. You’ve, you’ve well described that it’s the four pillars are very interconnected, because again, we have to put them in the context of the Genocide in Rwanda, , the one that and look at them as, as a very holistic journey.
So each, each of the four pillars. You know, it’s a step [00:13:00] or it’s a pillar that’s, that’s really without it, the journey we’re not, would be incomplete. The trauma recovery and reconciliation focuses more on the past, where we want to deal with the past. means we’re inviting genocide survivors, genocide perpetrators to actually sit at the table and think about their past and how that past have harmed them and affected them, but also how they can now deal with it and, and move into the future.
Then moving towards peace building. We think of the young generation, 20, 30 years after the genocide, we have the whole generation of people actually now, statistically, 65 percent of the whole population of Rwanda are people under the age of 30 years old.
Gissele overdub: Basically, this whole generation
Christophe: of people did not witness the genocide, could not explain the genocide, but the second generation.[00:14:00]
They learn about the history, either from, you know, government, from schools, but also from their parents. They have different narratives. But secondly, if, as a country, we have made a step toward peace and reconciliation, how do we ensure that that process will be sustainable? It’s when we invite the young people at the table.
For instance, under the Peace Building, we have a program we call Peace Conversation Cycles. It’s a project. And this one It’s when we invite adults, means genocide survivors and perpetrators, young people, and those that we call the rescuers. Rescuers are people whom during the genocide were courageous enough to to hide the Tuts who were being hunted and be killed, even though they were coming from the so called the Hutu by then, and they were courageous to hide them.
So they are recognized by the government, they are recognized in the communities, we call them the rescuers. So [00:15:00] those three categories, we bring them in the table, in the room from the same community, and they start talking. And here, young people now are learning the history, not as, as a countrywide, but From their community.
They ask questions. How was your relationship before the genocide? What happened during the genocide? And how are you resolving or restoring relations after the genocide? How do we dream together for the future, a shared future? Why? Because we want to make sure that this young generation grasps the importance of reconciliation, peace building, but also so that they understand their role to play to sustain the peace that we are enjoying today as a nation.
very much. Then we go to the economic development, economic empowerment. Rwanda as a nation, after the genocide, the government has been taking, you know, the population into what we call the socio economic transformation. [00:16:00] But also remember, poverty has played an important role during the genocide. Some years back, we did a study, was very quantitative study.
We wanted to understand What actually made the normal human, you know, the genocidias to become killers. And throughout the interviews, we discovered that some people were involved in genocide because they were told if you kill Tutsi, you will get their properties, you will get their cows, you will get all of that.
So means poverty has a role somehow, you know, contributing in the cause of the genocide. But then look at the poor genocide process. We have genocides victims who had not only lost their beloved one and their properties. cows and houses, but they had lost hope because of the trauma. So when they recover from the trauma, they regain also their hope for the future.[00:17:00]
So they need to work because now they have a sense and the meaning of they understand the sense of the meaning of life. But on the other side, we have genocidal perpetrators who have been in the prison for 10, 15 years. They are restored back in the society. They are integration, but they need to work hard Maybe to try to catch up on the 10, 15 years lost in the prisons.
So that’s why economic empowerment, economic development is a very important pillar if we want to move toward sustainable peace and reconciliation. And finally, youth leadership or youth empowerment. You know, Leadership matters in anything when you talk about the vision, when we talk about the political I mean, ideologies and or sort of like what we see in the world today, just one single leader.
A speech of [00:18:00] one leader changes the history of U. S.
That’s why it’s very critical to educate our young people. That’s when you become leaders, you need to understand what leadership means and the influence of leaders to society and communities and be leaders, not for your own sake, your own benefit, but be a unifying leader, a united leader, a leader who sees.
It’s a vision of, of bringing people together, not a leader who’s divide people. So that’s why all the four pillars are very critical, very important to us.
Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that is so, so powerful. And as I said, very well thought out because you’re hitting some of the major things. Number one is like you’re teaching the young people to critically think.
So you can say to people that you’re a democracy, but if you don’t behave like a democracy. And maybe you’re not a democracy you’re talking about the power of conversation. People aren’t talking anymore. They’re just [00:19:00] cancelling each other. They’re just like, well, I’m done with you. I don’t need to talk.
But having those difficult conversations is really pivotal. And the last thing is really like, One of the things I’ve learned in my experiences and talking to people on my podcast is that when people are in survival whether it be their physical body or whether it be economically, they can’t think about love and compassion and reconciliation and seeing somebody else as the, as a brother and sister.
They see people as others because they’re too busy surviving. So what you are doing is you’re helping them shift out of that survival mode by helping them with their economic development so that they then can be open. to talking about how to create a world that is more united, and I think that’s so powerful.
I do have a question though. How do you get the people that have acted as perpetrators to address their shame so that they can have those conversations? because [00:20:00] In my experiences, I’ve seen people really get very defensive or deny. How do you help them get to the other side of that so that they can be able to engage in the dialogue and listen with an open heart?
Christophe: That’s, that’s a good question. And as I agree with you how to when we all think about post violence, post genocide in the context of Rwanda, post conflict there’s a tendency which comes from the human nature to wish to focus more on the survivors, which, which makes sense because, you know, there’s, that’s, you know, empathy, that’s, you know, easily comes in. . The journey of perpetrators, it’s, it’s, it’s really a very difficult journey because when you have committed a crime such as the genocide, when you have been involved in murdering people that you knew and innocent people, Like psychologically, to even recover and understand [00:21:00] and come back to the normal sense of humanity, it takes time.
So, but in the context of Rwanda, we’ve got people after their sentences, they thought we’ve done our sentence, we’ve paid the price for our crime. Why do you want us to come in the conversation? So it has, it has been a long journey with different stages and steps. Because first of all, After the genocide, the government of Rwanda taught how to deal with justice, but a very destructive justice system.
That’s, we enable, first of all, the truth to be revealed and to be told, but secondly, maybe to create an opportunity from which perpetrators can relate with survivors after they would have known the truth. So that’s when there was the, what called the Gachacha (Restorative Justice) Courts, which basically it’s called the, you know, the court from the grass.
It’s where you invite [00:22:00] community members all coming together and you invite the perpetrator and the victim to stand there and you listen, you hear their case. But also every committee member has a say, you know, can say, raise their hands and contribute to that. So when that happens, first of all, genocide suspected people in the prisons were encouraged to come forward, speak the truth, accept their involvement in their crimes, so that their sentence would be reduced.
Initially, they did not believe so. They did not believe that was true. But through the government, you know, encouragement and Teachings, they, they start coming forward, accepting, acknowledging their crime and asking for forgiveness, like confessing, not asking, but confessing. And then they came out to go through the Gachacha court in the community.
So then whoever was [00:23:00] truthful and in the community by the committee member, they will say this person has been truthful in what they said and has been remorseful. So the sentence got reduced, then these people came back in the society live side by side with the victims. Now, yes, you’ve come out of the prison.
But the question is, are you truly free or you still deal with the inner prisons? Because you can be out of the four walls, like the physical prisons, but still psychologically live in the prison. And so when we approach them and we invite them, so as cursor they now they know, maybe there’s an opportunity to deal with the psychological prison that we’ve been dealing with after we were out of the physical prison.
So that’s how we start with these people. However, [00:24:00] remember that. One of the reasons why these people committed genocide, it was propaganda. It was all the many years prior to the genocide. They did what they believed was the right thing to be done.
Gissele overdub: So when we did,
Christophe: yes, when we thought we are killing the enemy, we are taking, we are whipping out the enemy and you can live well without that.
So now when they come and meet the survivor and hear and learn how they are, crime have created huge consequences to the victims. We have experienced that through research. We did release a survey, their self forgiveness decreases. Because now they understand. Initially they thought, yes, we’ve done evil, but You know, we had no choice in a sense, but now when they learn, when they approach and they see it and they understand, they listen from the survivor, they hear the huge [00:25:00] devastation, the huge effect they have caused to the victim, then the self forgiveness decreases.
So that’s why we have what we call like the workshop, but also have what we call the concession cell groups. Why? Because that’s where the conversation continue in the, at the community level, at the village level. And then the perpetrators. Now, they are able to then ask for forgiveness, truly confess. And sometime they say, I don’t deserve forgiveness because what I’ve done to use it.
It’s unimaginable. It’s unhuman, but please. Forgive me. So that’s when they hear and they see the responses from the survive from the survivor from the victims, then that’s when they get it from their shame and their guilt. So what we have learned here is this. You know, sort of like, you know, punitive justice, [00:26:00] you know, we have today, the criminal justice systems, we see today, where a perpetrator is put behind the bar sentence for 1020 years, the victim or the survivor stays in the community, some type of no help over limited help, and these people never come together.
The question always ask people who benefit from that justice. Who’s benefiting from that?
Gissele overdub: I spoke to a friend of mine. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Christophe: Yes. No, no, go ahead.
Gissele overdub: I was going to share the fact that I have a friend who does compassion in the prison system work. And that’s what she had said to me. She said, you know, we’re doing, we’re asking these.
prisoners to do a Herculean effort of trying to be more loving and compassionate and understand the impact of their behavior when you, we put them in prison, separate them from everyone and put and surround them with people that have the same mentality. So how is it that they’re going to get there? It really is through that what you were [00:27:00] talking about, the reconciliation, the, the, the community going back and facing the impact of those, the behavior from the place of compassion of like, Hey, this is the impact.
I think that’s really what gets people to change. And so I agree with you it that those, these systems don’t benefit anyone. In fact, it’s sort of a cycle of you go back and then you, you loop back and commit another crime. So it’s not helping anyone.
Christophe: There’s no, there’s no better way I can say it. Than what have what you’ve said.
It’s exactly that. Yeah. And, and I’m talking from very practical point of view, like the only way to take away the, the, the guilt and the shame from any perpetrator. It’s actually to allow the perpetrator to see, to meet and to hear from the survivor, the victim. Even if the anger, expressing, the anger, expressing the bitterness toward the, the perpetrator.
People want to know. And to hear from their victims of how [00:28:00] they are feeling from their crime. At least that’s, if that’s not
Gissele overdub: there,
Christophe: people die with their, they are guilty.
Gissele overdub: I completely agree, completely. Can you talk about Cows for Peace and how this idea came about? Because just based on your documentary, so, so significant.
And so I want you to share it a little bit with my audience.
Christophe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Cow for Peace program is a CARSA sort of like creative initiative that we started. Now it’s actually becoming, people have done a few research around that and we are working on making that sort of like, for instance, once I was in Chicago and people asked me in their context, like, what is the cow in our context?
I say, I don’t know, you need to figure out what that is. Anyway, how did it start? You know, when we started bringing together Genocide Survivors and Perpetrators and using a [00:29:00] seven day workshop program that we have, at the end, we thought, this is just A beginning of long, a long process. We cannot expect or assume that seven days of conversation is enough to deal with this deep issue.
So then that’s when the second stage came, what we callresilience or reconciliation cell groups where these people at the village level, they meet on a regular basis. It’s locally led. They elect their own leader and, you know, we only support the continue. So when that’s happened initially. Yes, they started meeting, but it was not sustainable.
Then we started thinking, how do we make this really in a great collaborative journey? That’s people we want to commit for a long time. So that’s when we thought maybe if we find a common interest, a shared interest, that’s we bound these people together. You know, [00:30:00] that’s, we probably help them to, to stay in the journey and do the process.
That’s how the cow came in mind. And then when the cow came into mind, I remember we started with one cow. Just one cow. Because we had these people, two people. One was called John and Chantal. John was the perpetrator, Chantal the survivor. And they took a long journey for Chantal to forgive John. And then when Chantal was able to forgive John, welcoming John to his family, to her family, her house.
You know, really express forgiveness. Then we thought, how do we make this sustainable? The cow idea came in mind, and we gave the cow to share. So when we start observing them, and then we start even remembering what the cow mean in our context, in our culture. First of all, historically, cows have been used by the Germans to divide the Rwandans.
That’s historically, historically, because when the Belgian [00:31:00] divided the Rwandans, what they call the ethnicity Hutu and Tutsi, initially they said, whoever had 10, 000 above is Tutsi and whoever had less than 10, Hutu. So people could shift from one group to the other. That’s historical. It’s ridiculous. You have to remember that.
Yeah, you can read it’s, it’s out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then this cow had been used initially to divide the Rwanda. That’s one. But secondly, cow has a different meaning in our culture. It has a very cultural meaning whereby when we, we are married, when someone want to marry, we pay Dowry. And the Dowry, it’s a cow.
Even in the city where people no longer have the cows, they pay money, but they still call the cow. So it’s, it’s there, but thirdly, culturally. Cow, it’s, it’s a sign used to be a sign of wealthy and dignity in the community. Whoever had a cow will no longer be considered as a [00:32:00] poor. Why? Because of the significance and the value and that’s cows bring the family at the family level.
But fourthly, cows, it’s the animal that’s produced milk in our context and milk is very nutritional drink, but also it’s, it’s a source of income. So it becomes at one side, it’s, it’s very. Social, cultural, and, you know, animal that has a unique meaning. That’s when they, this cow is given to these two people to raise it together, collaboratively raise the cow together.
It’s the number one, helps the people to meet on a regular basis. because they raise the cow. Secondly, involve their families because the children will be involved in that. And the spouses. And thirdly, when they start sharing the milk and how the neighbors seeing these former enemies now visiting each other to raise the cow.
People believe [00:33:00] because now the forgiveness is no longer theoretical. It’s practical. You cannot share with your enemy a drink such as the milk. You cannot invite an enemy to come and milk the cow at your house and share the milk. You cannot give a cow to your enemy. So the forgiveness becomes tangible and real.
And that’s why it becomes extreme forgiveness because they are sharing the cow but also remember, raising the cow up to the point when it has a calf, and the calf is grown up enough to be given to the, by the survivor to the perpetrator, it’s, it’s not less than a year, 12 months or 16 months.
And as a collaborative, they raise the cow together. There’s some conflict that arises around raising the cow together. So when they are able to solve these problems around the responsibilities of sharing the code, raising the cow together, you are actually storing their, their resilience capacity. Now, I
Gissele overdub: was [00:34:00]
Christophe: It’s not just the conflict around the genocide, but now normal conflict that we all deal in our daily lives.
So that’s resilience capacity growing around dealing with the conflict around raising the shared cow. Then it makes these people to be even prepared citizen to be peaceful community members. So the cow has become a very unique tool that have been playing in magic. extraordinary role in bringing, I mean, forgiveness and reconciliation between genocidal survivors and
Gissele overdub: perpetrators.
Oh, amazing. You know, as you were talking, Christophe, I was thinking, you know, like through your cow project, you’re actually living, Martin Luther King’s vision of love has the power to transform an enemy into a friend. Right. and what I, what I loved about your documentary is that you were talking about how the cow actually brings out issues.
It brings out whether or not people have truly forgiven and whether or not [00:35:00] truly they can come together because you were so honest in your documentary, because there was a struggle between you know, a former victim and a former perpetrator that there were, there were, there were still issues that were coming up in terms of managing the cow, right?
Like lack of trust and so on. And so I love how the cow is such a deep symbol, and it’s such a way to keep the conversation going and keep people and for people to. work together and see a unifying force because I think that’s the struggle. And that’s why the division is people don’t see what the, what the common humanity is.
But in your case, you are, you are creating that. Speaking of your documentary you talked in the documentary about how You know, many friends and families turn into enemies because of the genocide. And I wanted to ask you, this is more of a philosophical question, but what do you believe causes someone to lose their humanity?
Christophe: Yeah. You know, when we talk about losing humanity let me first say that losing [00:36:00] humanity is not just the Rwandan. Issue just based on the genocide of what happened in genocide, losing humanity, not just an African issue, where sometimes Western tend to believe that Africans are always violent and brutal.
Losing humanity is actually a global issue. And it’s, it’s across the board. It’s, it’s, you know, across race and, and religion and, and all of that. And why? I think we need first to understand why do people lose humanity? We see now, as we speak today, we see in many part of the world, innocent children, innocent women and elder people being brutally killed by guns and all sort of, you know, weapons.
And you tend to ask yourself a question, what’s going on in the mind of these people when they just shoot blindly [00:37:00] in a particular community or city or town, not thinking that people are there deserve the same life as their own people. But then you think of the division we’ve been talking about.
We live in a very diversity, diversity society, and we have so many differences. But at the same time, we have many in common, but the human nature tend to focus on the diversity and the differences than to the common. We all bleed the same blood, you know, we tell people that it’s very interesting. I wish I would ask God why he did so like we all share the same type of blood, A, B, O, and AB.
There’s no type of blood of Chinese or [00:38:00] African, black, white women. We all share that. But why do we tend to more focus on the differences? First of all, it’s the fear of the other. And the fear of the other is either created by political narratives, or ethnic or racial narratives, where we think the others are the causes of our pain, the causes of our troubles, they want to take away our benefits, and our comfort zones.
And so then we, we, we tend to create sort of like bubbles where we feel we are comfortable when we are only us versus others.
That’s, that’s first. But secondly, when you look at the stage of the genocide, It’s what we call, or they call dehumanization. Dehumanization, it’s when you take away [00:39:00] humanity out of the others, and you no longer see them as human. You see them as enemies, as in the context of Rwanda, they saw Tutsi as snakes, cockroaches, and all other names.
So that what we see today. So all the differences we have racial, religion, gender nowadays, and all of that, then we see they are no longer human because the human cannot behave that way. So when you take humanity out of the human being, of course, you kill a snake. In your mind, you’re not killing a human beings as you, you are even excited to kill a snake.
You are, you’re excited to kill this animal and why? Because you’ve taken away humanity from the other person. But secondly, when you do that, you’re also taking humanity from yourself.
And so We lose humanity when we take away humanity from others, just for our [00:40:00] own benefits, you know, or the fear of the others, or, or political propaganda that’s at all. That’s if you know, educated and all of that, then also take humanity from us because we don’t see that anymore but start gradual.
It’s division as you know, like, you know, I can’t eat with these people, I can’t talk with these people. I can’t, you know, go or my neighbors annoying. They do this. Mm-Hmm. exactly. So when we start creating division as versus them, that’s the first stage, then you go to the other stages as, as you know, it’s safe from classification, symbolization, discrimination, you know, dehumanization, then all of those, then it goes gradually.
It’s not just how something happens. In the day, you know, when we see the political differences, I mean, the political ideologies and the political lines that are more, you know, growing today. [00:41:00] Hey, we should be now more intellectual and we should have learned from the history. That’s why don’t we? Because the human nature of selfishness.
Of wanting more and as only in as only. And we forget about that so it’s, it’s really something complex.
Gissele overdub: Yeah.
Christophe: But at the same time, it’s more we lose humanity to was that we take away you might from others and we lose our humanity, then whatever we do. When we bomb somewhere, we don’t believe we are bombing, bombing to people.
We think we are only bombing to whatever you, we call them. It’s you know, all those names you put on them and they deserve that because they are evil and we forgot our own evil. And, and therefore we have lost. And that’s why we see what we saw today, why it’s just, you know, but mainly deep down, it’s the fear of the others.
Gissele overdub: Yeah. You know, in fear is [00:42:00] so like this fear and perspective of lack is really what, what we continue to choose. And I think is what’s causing all this havoc in our world. And even when you look at those people that are quote unquote. Powerful and that are dividing the world meaning that, you know, the people that show extraordinary greed and whose political agenda is to divide, they’re coming at it from a place of fear and lack.
You could be a billionaire and still be in a lot of lack because that’s what you need more and more and more and more and more. And, and the thing is, I do believe that comes from a lack of self love and a lack of, of like that. connection because you’re so separated from yourself that you do these things.
You see somebody as the other. You need to stand in and divide people so that you can get power, but that’s not true power. That’s just force. That’s not true power. In the truly powerful, stand in their own mastery. In the truly not powerful, need to do that, need to divide people, need to [00:43:00] accumulate as much as possible.
And so we have misunderstood power for a very long time, but it goes back to the fear. You were saying that we become so fearful and we have to choose to love. We have to choose to not see that rather than choosing to dehumanize. You were going to say,
Christophe: yeah, I want just to add something on what say, thanks for that.
I think many people live with psychological emptiness and the vacuums. That they think, wealth and power, we, we complete that, we cover that, and unfortunately, It will not. And then they continue. They think, actually, if I can get more, then it would be satisfied. If I get more power and have more control, I’ll be satisfied.
Why? Because individual people have the vacuum, psychological [00:44:00] vacuum and psychological brokenness and emptiness that cannot be filled or covered with all what they think, rather than acknowledging that. And accept and accepting to get support. So then they give names and they justify and they round people around them.
Maybe we’ve shared interest. And then they think if you have more power going to control and then we are more safe and so it’s as I said it’s more complicated. It’s, you know, very complex. But what I think is that. Awareness and acknowledging that’s actually this not the solution has never been the solution.
So therefore, let’s let’s, you know, accept and come at the table. That’s that’s the [00:45:00] answer, because I always tell people that we always live with whatever we live with it. The differences, as I’ve mentioned, or psychological. And wellness that comes from many things we need to face to accept that it’s a reality and the fact, you know, we need to accepting acknowledging, you know, but also embracing and dealing with that in a positive way than using that as another weapon to harm society and harm ourselves.
So, that’s the way.
Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. This goes to my next question, which is like what do you think is the starting point for people? Because I mean, I mean, you see people that have like, like a chasm in terms of division, right? Like you’re talking victim perpetrator, but there are people that are still, they’re reinforcing that division and causing further, further division out.
What do you think would be the first step that people can take towards coming together? Maybe who might [00:46:00] have conflict with their neighbors, with their brothers or sisters or whatever. What, what’s the first step they could take in terms of coming even one step closer towards conversation or towards just eradicating that division?
Christophe: Yeah, you know, that’s a, that’s a very difficult question and good one. Why? Because when we see, like, we tend to look at all those divisions from above. When we look at societies, countries, you know, all, you know, political level where, you know, but we tend to first start from the individual level.
Today, we have so many siblings who cannot talk to each other. So many, we have former friends who have become enemies. [00:47:00]
Gissele overdub: Yeah.
Christophe: That’s at the individual level. And I think that’s where we need to start the conversation from before we start thinking about how do we bring these two politicians, the same table in the same room?
Gissele overdub: It’s
Christophe: how do we bring siblings one who comes after the other? How do we make talk to each other? How do we make true that talk to family, to parents in the other way around? How do we make spouses to talk to each other for me, when that happens, then I can think about that’s higher. That’s why at CARSA, we identify ourselves as a very grassroots community organization, because we see individuals.
We see communities before we think about the nation. Why? Because that’s where everything
Gissele overdub: starts.
Christophe: So I think this question for me, it’s how do we make that happen? And I think for that to happen, there are some steps that need to take place. [00:48:00] In some cases, first of all, maybe the process won’t look the same because of various reasons.
One, the context, the context, but also the culture. You know, there are cultures where people don’t talk to their neighbors generally and they think that’s normal. Sorry to say, but in the places where, when you enter it, you know, in a bus or a train, you make sure you, you know, you are room and you don’t move around so that you don’t touch your neighbor.
Like you create your own world in the bus, like, you know, your privacy where you, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, my, my place. So I think culture also plays an important role or need to be, you know, yeah. But. In some contexts, you need people who we facilitate the conversation,
who, who first of all, we go [00:49:00] with the intention to understand each side. It’s part that you listen. Why are you not talking to a sister? Why are you not into a brother? Then people will express themselves with the anger, with the bitterness, with the accusation, with, you know, the victimization. I mean, the victim, which would, you know, everything.
Then you listen, but then you ask questions. When you ask questions to unlock. The people to move from their emotional side to the logical side of their brain. Then people start thinking, and then you go to the other side. But if that’s not there, people play victimization or victimhood from both side.
That’s one. But secondly, human nature. We are, as I said earlier, we are very selfish and we tend to think. Why do you want me? Why not him or her come first? You know, me to accusation, me to blame, [00:50:00] then that will never happen. The conversion will never take place. That’s why we need to first, it’s like, it’s like cleaning the space and the space of it has to be cleaned from both sides, where mutual accusation, mutual blame goes aside.
And the people start thinking themselves, Then to understand the pain and the suffering that’s the experiencing from the fact of not being able to talk to the whatever enemy. Let’s suppose that’s the enemy’s there and enjoying seeing you suffering. So what are benefiting? So when people understand actually by not talking, by not coming at the same table, you are actually digging yourself.
You are putting more deep and deep in the hole yourself.
Gissele overdub: Yeah.
Christophe: Then people understand, okay, I’m barring myself here at the end of come to the level I can’t even breathe anymore. [00:51:00] And that’s why it causes so many physical sicknesses, diseases that experience coming from no psychological, emotional issue that people cannot deal with.
So I, again, as I said, that’s not a conversation we can have, you know, it’s something that’s need to have the more time. You know, it’s it’s a great starting point to see that. For me, when I think of that individual level of people not coming to it, that’s what makes me more even feel bad because, and at the end, let me tell you who is perfect, who is innocent, who human beings will raise their hands and say, you know, I’ve been always victim in the innocent,
Gissele overdub: who in
Christophe: this world we live
Gissele overdub: in.
Yeah. As Jesus would say, cast the first stone if you’re.
Christophe: So it might be a [00:52:00] minor role, but still, you know, let’s, let’s call people, let’s be bridge builders. And not bridge destroyers. Why? Because at the end of the day, we all need to cross the river to either go to the other side for various reasons. So when you understand that, then you are not doing that’s actually for, for actually, it’s not a gift we are giving to others.
It’s a gift to even we give to ourselves when we accept to come together and talk about a nation.
Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. And I do believe that what we do for others, we do for ourselves and what we do for ourselves, we do for others in terms of our healing. So I just, a couple more questions. What does unconditional love mean to you?
I ask all my guests that question.
Christophe: Unconditional love it’s, it means
vulnerability.
Gissele overdub: Good answer. Oh, so last question. Where can people [00:53:00] find your organization? Where can they volunteer? Where can they donate? Maybe talk about the documentary. Anything that you want to say in terms of where people can come and find out more about CARSA and maybe work with CARSA.
Christophe: Yes CARSA is a, is a, an organization that’s based in Rwanda, as I said, and we have a different nowadays with technology, we have website, we have social media. Like if you go, you know, www.carsaministry.org, then you find most of the information there. You can either have, you know, look at our different videos and, and documentaries that are there, some publications, you know, and can also get access to Facebook.
Check out CARSA’s documentary “Blood and Milk”: here
And read about “Unforgiven”: here
You know, Twitters now called x. You know, you can go to, you know YouTube. We have also some videos and YouTube. If you cast a ministry, then you get some YouTube. So there are, you know, different channels and platform from which you can get, you know, to know organization. But second, we invite people always to come and visit our work [00:54:00] and first hands.
Why? Because We know world is full of people doing great jobs in many different areas. And there are so many generous people also out there who want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And we appreciate anyone who has contributed to the work of CARSA in the past and even currently, but we encourage and invite people to come because the work that CARSA is doing, it’s not just for Rwandans, it’s not just for CARSA.
Come and experience, come and see, come and, and touch the ground because what God is doing through CARSA in Rwanda is something that’s need to be experienced and be adapted and hope and create hope. So, and also people invite CARSA sometimes people have invited me to speak like you did virtually or physically.
I go in and speak to conferences, you know, [00:55:00] churches, gatherings, workshops, and I’m always open when people invite me to go and, and, and share what we’ve been learning. Because I believe that’s what we’ve been seeing, because let me say this.
Working in the area of reconciliation, peace building in the current world. If you look at what is happening in the world, it tends to be very discouraging. You wonder if even what you’re doing is making any, any, any contribution, is making any small change. There’s so many violence happening, conflict around the world.
But personally, as the director of CARSA, as the founder of this organization, Why I wear every day woke up with believing that they should continue really passionately work into reconsent. It’s what I’ve been seeing in Rwanda. And I tell people [00:56:00] if forgiveness is possible between the genocide survivors and perpetrators in Rwanda, forgiveness is possible anywhere.
In any context, if a genocide survivor can welcome a person have murdered the entire family in his home, and the share me and Johnny together. There’s a hope that that can happen. That’s constant. And we invite people to come to volunteering. We host student for internships. We invite people for doing research with us.
So the different ways that we Host in partner with people and collaborate with people from all over the world who wants to come and, and, and support and be part of what God is doing through CARSA. So please welcome whoever listened to this podcast. You know, go on the website, you find CARSA and his email, his phones, you know, contacts would be happy to respond and welcome you and collaborate in any way [00:57:00] possible.
So thank you very much.
Gissele overdub: Thank you so, so much. And please check out CARSA, check out their documentary, blood and milk, and stay tuned for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle.
Christophe: Thank you. Thank you very much.